K School Discussion 2, Brockwood Park, 1 October 1969

Krishnamurti: What do we talk about this morning?

Questioner: You never finished about dissection.

K: Oh, I thought you had settled that. Do you want to talk about it?

Q: No.

K: No. All right. All right.

Q: What was the question you asked yesterday?

Q: (Inaudible)

Q: (Inaudible)

K: May I ask a question?

Q: Yes.

Q: Yes.

K: Yes? Right. I wonder what you are all going to do in life. Apart from dissection (laughs) and mathematics, or part of mathematics and dissection and all the rest of it, what is it you are interested in?

(Pause)

Of course for the girls, if I may say so, inevitable marriage, babies and domesticity, and get lost in that till they are about 40, 50, and then start something else. I know… (laughs) You don’t like that?

Q: No

K: No. (Laughs) But that inevitably is going to take place, one way or another, marriage or no marriage. And what is it you are vitally interested in? Or is it too early to ask you that question? Seeing what the world is, how the hippies are trying to find different communes, little communities where they want to escape from the world with all its ugliness — business, politics, professional world, like doctors, scientists, professors — what would attract you? If I was asked at your age, I wouldn’t know. I couldn’t possibly have said what I am interested in. But there was already a tendency, already a feeling, a directive going on inside. And that directive, that feeling, that movement became stronger, deeper, wider as it went along. And I am not talking about myself personally, because that is not of very great importance, but is there a tendency, a feeling what you want to do? Not as a hobby, not as something that you undertake for a few years then drop it and go on to something else, then drop it, you know? Is there a deep, underlying current, or are we going to be driven by circumstances, by pressures of society? I’ve got to earn a livelihood, therefore I’ll become a lawyer, a worker or a professional of some kind or another, or a bureaucrat. Is this an important question or not?

Q: It is, yes. It is important.

K: You see, most people start out with extraordinary enthusiasm and keenness, and vitality and a drive, then they get frustrated in one direction or another, then they get bitter, angry with life, deeply feeling a sense of failure, and therefore take to drink or to religion or to whatever it is they take to, drugs. Or you escape into some form of enthusiastic hobby, whether it be religion or business, or whatever it is, and get completely lost in there so that you never question yourself, you never question the whole business of existence. Or if one is discontented, you know, fed up, angry with oneself, discontented, again that soon finds contentment in a certain action, in a certain activity, and then you are caught in that, and forever, until you die, you go along there. So taking all this, what is it one feels like doing? It doesn’t mean that one must decide now and then stick to it, but I think, shouldn’t one ask this question of oneself? And if you did ask, would you know for yourself the tendency, the feeling towards something? Or are we going to accept — which I am not saying is right or wrong — the ordinary, bourgeois established life?

Or seeing all this, the very seeing of it awakens your intelligence and says, ‘I want to do something entirely different.’ Not as a reaction, not for some eccentric reason, but you see it and say, ‘No, this doesn’t… it smells, and I don’t want to do that, I’m a little more intelligent than that.’ Which is not conceit, but seeing this is rather stupid and you… the very seeing of what is stupid, you are already out of it. It is no longer a reaction, therefore you might feel you want to do something which is quite different.

Would it be right? I’m going on talking until you begin to warm up. Don’t you think that a place of this kind, or a joint of this kind, should expose you to all this — to a married life, to the family — expose you, show it to you what it means, what is involved in it — the routine, the sexual habits, the children, the quarrels, the nagging, the domination in a family life, and out of it breaking, divorce, bitterness, the whole sense of that family, or little happiness now and then in that? Then in the business world, what it involves, the routine of it, going on and on and on, day after day, day after day, climbing the ladder or falling down the ladder. The army. I don’t know where it was said, either in India or in China even, that the soldier is the most stupid human being on earth. (Laughs) And then in all this, shouldn’t you be exposed to it, shown it — not condemn it, say this is right, this is wrong, this is good, this is bad, but just to be exposed so that your own intelligence is awakened and observes?

(Long pause)

Perhaps this may be rather a difficult question, so let us leave it there for the moment. How do you — may I go on asking questions? How do you awaken intelligence? Intelligence being not cleverness, not the capacity to acquire a great deal of knowledge and use it cleverly. Intelligence, surely, is something more than mere capacity to absorb information, correlate it, and discuss, argue very cleverly. But intelligence is something entirely different, isn’t it? What do you think is intelligence?

Q: Isn’t it the ability to — well, it involves the ability to be aware of all that’s around you, to be able to see things in their proper relationship to each other, or as how they are.

K: You mean, being aware of things around one, and be able to relate the various fragments, and see a total unity of all that, and act according to that total perception. Would you call that intelligence?

Q: Yes.

K: To be able to see not only externally, outside of one, but also inwardly, to see the body, the response of the body biologically, to be aware of the emotional responses, the sentiments, the sexual, biological urges, and to see the activity of the brain — the brain which has been conditioned for centuries upon centuries, to think, to act, to protect itself, and so on, so on — and also to see that this whole movement, as a unit, as a whole, both outwardly and inwardly — would you call that intelligence? To be aware when one is angry, and immediately perceive the causes of anger, and to see whether it is possible to end anger immediately, and not repeat the anger over and over and over again — to see if one is jealous, and so on and so on — as a total process. Not anger one day, jealously another day, ambition — the total perception of all that, would you call intelligence? Which acts, which doesn’t say, ‘Well, I’m very intelligent,’ and stops. (Laughs)

(Long pause)

If you go to India — I hope you will someday — there you will see poverty as you have never seen anywhere else in the world. I was born there — the parents were very, very poor. And you will see religion, which is merely… greatly superstition, and the repetition, predominates life, dominates life, at least verbally. It is part of their existence, like bread and butter. And religion here, in this country, in Europe, has also played a tremendous part, mostly superstition again. And, you know, the various religions throughout the world — Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, and so on, Christianity — man has always sought something, always seeking, seeking, seeking, something more than mere bread and butter, bigger bathrooms. And because his mind is very small, his attitude, his activity is very petty, shallow, he says, ‘Well, at least there is something there much greater than all this rubbish.’ He projects that and worships that, and lives a shoddy little life.

And, as a group of people here, studying and all the rest of it, shouldn’t you also enquire into this whole religious question, not just brush it aside as superstition, as rubbish, but shouldn’t you explore it? Because that is part of life. As you explore biology and mathematics, history, relationship between human beings, sex, you know, the whole of living, shouldn’t you also explore this question of what is religion? Not the superstition, I don’t mean that, not the dogma, the handed-down beliefs, whether it is the Catholic or the Hindu or the Buddhist, or whatever it is. I think it was in the caves in South of France and North Africa, Lascaux, there you will find, 25,000 years ago and more, man painted pictures depicting evil and good, fighting each other — which is part of religion. And also shouldn’t you be interested, not only in music, in painting, in seeing the European art, what extraordinary beauty they have put on canvas and stone, like Michelangelo, and the Italian Renaissance — shouldn’t you also look into this question of what is meditation? Because if you don’t look into all that, and just study mathematics, history, and get a job and get married and few little children (laughs) — you miss such a lot. I think this place should offer all that. Not *should* — must.

You see, I never — if I may be a little personal; if I am, forgive me — I studied in England and I failed every exam. I sat God knows how many exams and never passed one — not only in England but Sorbonne and other places. I couldn’t do it. The people who looked after me said, ‘That’s enough. Don’t study anymore because you can’t do it.’ And I’ve never read any philosophy or religious books, except perhaps the Bible as the beauty of the language only, not what it said or what it believed, about all the sentimental nonsense that went on about it. I am referring to myself because I think one should be able to look at the world, not only nature, the tree, the birds, the flowers and the beauty of life outside in nature, but also one should be able to look into oneself so clearly, because there is all the history of mankind — his struggles, his ambitions, his drives, his temptations, his arrogance, his violence, his stupidity — everything is there. So shouldn’t you be concerned with all this, not just fragments of life? And if one is so concerned, out of that comes intelligence. And out of that intelligence, one acts. One doesn’t put it on a shelf and leave it alone there.

Well, I’ve said enough, now it’s your turn.

Do any of you paint, play an instrument, guitar, and all the rest of it?

Q: I play the guitar.

K: Do you write poems?

Q: Yes, I do.

K: Do you love to work in the garden, with your hands? Because if you don’t, you lose something. I have worked at it, years. If you don’t put your hand to the earth you are missing something.

(Pause)

That’s why this place has all these opportunities. It’s up to you.

I don’t know if you were here at spring time — there were long boxes along the road, inside the estate, where they bred pheasants — mother and little babies — fed them carefully, and they were released two months ago, after they had grown up. And this month, in the coming month, they are going to shoot them.

(Pause)

Q: If we can do something about this here, at Brockwood anyway, like, I would like to do something about it so that they don’t do it.

K: I don’t know if you can do much because this place has forty acres, surrounded by all these farms, and they probably will come here and beat the bushes and drive them out and kill them.

Q: Oh, you mean they are coming up here to kill them?

K: Maybe, because legally… it is lawful. I don’t know, one has to go into this — I don’t know.

Q: They are allowed to beat here. They are allowed to chase the birds off this land, and then kill them.

K: Do you know what they did during the war, at Hamburg? I forget now — yes, I think it was Hamburg. You know the Quaker movement? They sent a representative, who was a friend I know, I still know him, to investigate what happened. First the allies bombed Hamburg in the centre, drove the people out, and then bombed the people from the outside, drove them in, and drove them out like that, and bombed. Do you know how many they killed? So there isn’t much difference, killing human beings and birds.

(Long pause)

Q: Sir, may I ask a question? Some people here might not want to work in gardens, or not study, or are just lazy, like sometimes we are when we don’t understand things. Is there anything the educators can do about it?

K: I mean, you are asking… she is asking all, not me. If one of us is lazy, doesn’t want to work, doesn’t want to put his hands to the earth, etc., and so on, so on, what is one to do?

Q: I don’t think there is anything you can do; it’s up to yourself.

K: I am part of this group and I’m lazy, I don’t want to go into the garden and do things, I don’t want to tidy up, I don’t want to clean up, I don’t want to scrub the floors.

Q: Also about studies, I mean.

K: Studies, everything.

Q: The parents send you to school and you don’t want to study.

K: Study, everything — what are you doing to do with me? Just leave me alone and say, ‘Well, my dear chap, it’s your business’?

Q: Well, I don’t think it’s right to force anyone to do it… (inaudible)

K: Then what will you… My lady, what will you do with me?

Q: I don’t know.

Q: To understand.

Q: We have to try to…

K: Tell me, tell me what you are going to do with me.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: I want you to… Listen, I want you to do all the work, I want you to do all the dirt business (laughs), and I’ll just say, ‘Well, I’m here.’ What will you do with me?

Q: Well, I’ll ask you to try it once, at least to see if you like it. See if you can… I’d ask you to open your mind at least a little bit.

K: Yes, sir, it’s a problem — don’t fool yourself.

Q: I think how would you answer to yourself, because even if you try to both see there’s something to do and does not want to do it, so the question applies then oneself.

K: Ah, no. But here is a fact — don’t turn it on yourself — here is a fact: I refuse. I can’t somehow, I don’t want to — what will you do with me? Kick me in the pants?

Q: I’d ask you why you were here. To understand why you’re here.

K: Throw me out?

Q: Of course one would talk it over.

K: You’d talk it over with me, but tomorrow I am still the same. This talking over has got a… we would play with it. (Laughs) What will you do with me?

Q: First to understand the people… (inaudible)

K: Sir, understand me. I am lazy, I don’t want to do these things. Physically I feel repugnant about doing anything.

Q: There must be something wrong with you.

K: There is. (Laughter)

Q: There is something wrong with…

K: Then what will you do? Look, you’ve talked to me five days, six days, you’ve gone with me, you’ve pointed out, and at the end of a fortnight I am still the same. What are you going to do with me? Something is wrong with me.

Q: I mean, the people surrounding ought to do it, I mean, ought to find out what’s wrong with you, of the whole things, the whole community.

K: I agree, old boy, I agree, but… (laughs)

Mary Zimbalist: Meanwhile he’s not doing anything.

K: In the meantime you do all the work. (Laughs)

Q: Why does one not do it? Either one is exhausted, too tired, or…

K: No, Lauren, just look at it, sir. You have talked to me, you have pointed out to me, you have given me every push, and at the end of a fortnight I do nothing. And during that fortnight you all work, I don’t. What are you going to do with me?

Q: We’re not going to do anything.

Q: Why do anything with you, it’s the way you are. We can’t change you.

K: Then you will leave me alone?

Q: Yes.

K: And you do all the work?

Q: Yes.

K: Doesn’t that seem most unfair?

Q: Well, that’s just the way you are; there’s nothing we can do about it. Nothing I can do about it.

K: Now, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait. If you had a child and he refused to do anything — you follow? — what will you do with him? Just leave him alone?

Q: Well, there’s nothing I can do. Well, I could force him, but that wouldn’t do it.

K: No, do look at it. Would you, if it was your child, your responsibility, would you just say, ‘Well, sorry, I’ll leave you alone. I can’t do anything, I can’t beat you up,’ just leave it?

Q: I would.

K: Ah, you wouldn’t.

Q: Well, I would try…

Q: If you know that it’s good to study because, I mean, you have to study because yourself…

K: I am asking you. Here is a person who refuses, like me, to do anything. I am part of this community.

Q: You’re the part of this community that doesn’t do anything. I mean, you can…

K: You must solve it, sir. You can’t say…

Q: (Inaudible)

K: (Laughs) You can’t just leave me alone.

Q: I know, I know; I wouldn’t leave (inaudible).

K: Because if you leave me alone, I shall rot. You follow?

Q: Yes.

K: I shall become worse and worse, and it will be your responsibility — your responsibility for making me get worse and worse.

Q: But I would try. I would try different ways. I would try one way, if that didn’t work I would try another.

Q: (Inaudible)

Q: Well, one thing we are saying that you are that way, then we are accepting you as a static human being. We are saying you are lazy.

K: And then what? Just leave me alone?

Q: No, but I’m saying that the idea of your being lazy is a conclusion.

K: I know, but… and then say, ‘Well, poor chap, he is lazy, something is wrong.’

Q: Yes but I mean not to say it in the first place.

K: Yes, but there it is. The fact is there.

Q: But I wouldn’t say the fact that he is lazy. The fact is he doesn’t do certain things.

K: All right. I don’t do certain things which the community demands. We are together in this place to do certain things, and I come, I accept it at the beginning, and refuse later on, to do nothing. Lazy.

Q: Then it means that there’s people not belonging to the community.

K: No, no, you don’t look at it. Face it. You will have to do something. What will you do? Don’t give it up, don’t give it up. Put your brains to find out what to do.

Q: Ask why he doesn’t want to do anything. Find out why.

K: You know what would happen in an ordinary school?

Q: Yes.

Q: They’d be kicked out.

K: They would be taken into that… the boy would be taken into that swimming pool and dumped in there. I’ve seen it.

Q: Does that work?

K: It worked pretty quick, naturally. (Laughs) If he received it every day he would soon wake up. (Laughter) And as you can’t do that kind of stuff here, rough stuff, so what will you do? Think it out, sir, it’s your responsibility. If you don’t do anything, I get worse. I say, ‘Marvellous. These are very nice people, I’m going to exploit them.’ Exactly.

Q: What if you need some time to discover somebody doesn’t do it, working, and during that time you have been at him yourself, you are with him yourself?

K: Yes, sir, you discover pretty soon, after a week, that when you’re all washing dishes I go for a walk. (Laughs)

Q: It also depends on the attitude. If you are irritated because you have to do the washing…

K: Therefore, what will you do with me to alter me?

Q: You would have to be interested, not just interested in having… (inaudible)

K: Come, sir, help me. Help me. What will you do to make me change?

Q: Not to try to change you but to change myself.

K: No, madame, I am here, part of your community. I work for a few days and say, ‘By Jove, it’s pretty good.’ And at the end of a week I don’t do anything. And what are you going to do?

Q: You would watch that very carefully to see how does it come about. Either the person doesn’t really see what he is doing and he doesn’t see that…

Q: You can tell him, you know, ‘Come and help me,’ and he doesn’t want to.

Q: Then you ask why.

Q: Yes.

Q: Well, he tells you why, and then what? (Inaudible)

K: Now, look at your reactions. You say, ‘Leave him alone, I can’t do anything.’ Somebody else says, ‘I’ve talked to him and I’ve done everything, but there it is.’ Right? Now, why can’t we put all our reactions together — you follow what I mean? — yours, mine, his, and so on, and find out, out of those reactions, what is the right reaction? You understand what I’m saying? Now, that means what? That you are willing to put your opinion, your judgement on the table, and if it is wrong you’re willing to accept it is wrong and change it. You — you follow? — all of you.

MZ: What about the lazy ones?

K: Ah, leave the lazy one out for the moment. I am saying put me out. There are a dozen of you, or twenty of you, and say, ‘Look, this is what I think’ — why he is this way, why he is that way. And you offer, she offers, and so on. We all put all our opinions and judgements, what our conclusions are, and say: what is the right thing out of all this? Therefore you will be quite impersonal, won’t you? You follow what I mean? Your action will be completely impersonal and anonymous. Right? Which will be bound to affect me. If all of you together have said this is right — all of you — that communal anonymous saying does affect however lazy I am. But if you say, ‘Well, my dear chap, poor fellow, he is that way, let us leave him alone,’ you belong to me. And he says, ‘Well, I’ve talked to him and he is that way — by nature he’s that,’ and so gradually you discard me. You follow what I mean? And therefore I don’t care. But if all of you together — I don’t know if you follow what I mean. Which means you care what happens to me. All of you care what happens to me. And, by Jove, I realise these people really — you know? — care for me. They are really thinking about me. And that does — you know? You see how quickly you give it up?

Q: But it’s not sure that although you care you can change the people.

K: Sir, what are you talking about? Unless you give care to a plant it doesn’t grow properly. If you are all indifferent and say, ‘Well, poor fellow, he is that way, let him go his own way,’ and I feel none of you care, none of you really look at me because I don’t work. You have already condemned me and I say, ‘All right…’

So you see, you have got a clue. A new boy or girl comes, and you are the community, and you are going to judge whether you should come or not come. And if each one of us can say, ‘Look…’ — frankly, not, you know, shyly — put everything we feel about that boy or girl, each one of us, and see out of that what is the right thing to do, it will be completely true. And that is real cooperation. You understand what I mean? That is the real thing.

Q: Then it is the responsibility of each one of us, all together.

K: All together. Therefore, when I feel that it’s a responsibility on each one’s part, and each one has contributed to the right decision, I say, ‘By Jove, these people are really serious. They care for me.’ You follow? That does affect me. And you will see if you do that for a few days I will be up the next day. I’ll be the best floor scrubber in the world.

Q: Therefore this discussing about the lazy chap must be done when the lazy chap is fast asleep.

K: Of course, of course.

Q: Well, we have a daily meeting every morning.

(Pause)

Q: Would it be the same about studies also?

K: I should think everything, wouldn’t it?

You know, I don’t know if you have observed, or known, the rockets that went up to the moon. Do you know how many people worked at it? Three hundred thousand people, I believe, each doing anonymously his little part. And science is built that way, each contributing — not *I* contribute. In his experiment he has discovered something. He gives that. So together they have built. And to cooperate really requires a great deal of intelligence.

Is it time?

Q: Twelve thirty.

K: Is it time?

Q: Yes.

K: Basta.