Public Discussion 3, London, 3 May 1964
Krishnamurti: Shall we go on with what we were discussing yesterday? We were considering why it is that we are not aware or immediately in contact with conflict, with all the extraordinary problems that involve… that are involved in conflict. Why is it? That was one of the questions we asked ourselves. I think it would be worthwhile if we could pursue that.
What prevents us from being very awake to one of the major issues of life? (Pause) Is it the climate? If it were, then I’m afraid other countries would be terribly alive where there is sun, but they are not. Is it a matter of food — over-indulging in so many things so the mind and the brain gets rather heavy, dull, unaware and lack of intensity and energy? Probably all these count also, don’t they? But probably it is really the deadening effect on the psyche of modern existence, where we live so superficially, so mechanically, repeating every day, going to the office for thirty, forty years of our lives. So life becomes a routine, a boredom, and any problems, any fundamental radical issues are not grappled with at all.
I mean, if I… I would like to find out for myself why it is that we are incapable of facing things. I don’t know how… what…? What drives us, what is the impetus, the push? Just circumstances, responsibility, the habit that we have got into for forty years and keeps on going? Do please… let’s go into this a little bit because it seems to me that it’s very important because we need a great deal of energy, energy that is not… that is without a motive, if there is such a thing and I think there is. We need that kind of energy to really understand and go beyond conflict, because a mind that is really exploring, penetrating into states, which cannot possibly be understood if there is any pressure, if there is any motivation.
Because most serious people in the world want to discover for themselves something original, uncontaminated, untouched by propaganda, priests, politicians, something that’s valid, real, and I don’t see how that can be discovered by merely theorizing about it or belonging to organized groups and all that. And to penetrate that, one needs to have an astonishing amount of energy, a tremendous attention, and therefore the question of conflict, despair, anxiety, the sense of guilt… (inaudible) these have to be completely, entirely understood and one has to be free of them, otherwise you can’t possibly lay the foundation.
So what is it with most of us, why is it that we haven’t this driving energy to find out? Do let us discuss that, shall we, a little bit. Is it that you’re all are so terribly bourgeois? I’m not using that word in a communist sense at all; they are terribly bourgeois themselves.
(Laughter)
K: You know what I mean by the bourgeois attitude towards life: of acceptance, of being shaped by circumstances, born in this island and remain in this island, with class-consciousness, snobbery, and all the rest of it, and that is the basis, the foundation; from that we start. Is that one of the reasons, do you think? This acceptance of life as it is, wanting a little modification here and there, little change here and there — do you think that’s one of the reasons why our minds are not sharp, clear, sane, rational, healthy? Do please… What do you say?
Questioner: (Inaudible).
K: You mean you’re only slave to circumstances?
Q: Hm?
K: The weight of circumstances.
Q: Yes, the weight.
K: Yes, the weight of circumstances.
Q: Going on and on and on continuously.
K: Yes, but what do we do about it?
Q: What can one do?
K: Ah… (Laughter) *Nom d’un chien!*
Q: (Inaudible).
K: No, wait…Why do we submit to things that…?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Why do I put up with things, have this weight of…?
Q: (Inaudible)… in a certain way; one can’t discover… (inaudible).
K: Is it the… – please – is it the circumstances? Are we weighed down by circumstances?
Q: Well, you can call it circumstances but it happens… (inaudible).
K: Who creates this?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Oh, no.
Q: (Inaudible)… slowly suffocating.
K: Which you’re implying… what you’re implying is… circumstances, environment is suffocating, weighing down, and we can’t break through it.
Q: And many different sorts of environments.
K: Yes, different sorts of environment.
Q: All over the place.
K: Is that so? Are the circumstances different from the state of one’s own mind?
Q: (Inaudible)… we don’t do what you say… (inaudible).
K: It is not what I say, madame. I mean, it is… why is it when we are faced with something that demands clear, objective thinking, going into with vitality, strength, we haven’t got it? Why?
Q: Because we don’t want to.
Q: (Inaudible).
Q: (Inaudible).
K: We are saying that environment is something different from us. I’m not saying, as the communists say, we are the environment; we are to a certain extent, probably to a great deal… circumstances have created us, but that isn’t everything, but how do we break through it? (Pause) You know, what we are talking about demands a great deal of work; work, not mere physical work, but an attention that has to be constantly be exerted. I’m using words that are not really applicable.
Q: Is it of allowing… attention that has to be constantly allowed?
K: No; no.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: You know, a mind that is inquisitive is very alive, isn’t it? And the so-called intellectual person is terribly inquisitive, gathering information about so many things, reading all the latest books, and he’s very curious, he wants to know. That’s one kind of curiosity. But an intelligent man wants to know about the whole totality of life, which is himself. He has to learn about himself, to know how… what he is thinking, how he is thinking, why he is thinking, what he’s feeling, be aware, not suppressing, not sublimating, nothing; just being watchful. Apparently, that’s one of our difficulties, because ignorance is not of book and of other things, but ignorance is fundamentally the lack of one… lack of understanding of oneself. And to watch oneself, not introspectively, not with any condemnatory spirit, but just to watch oneself, the gestures, the way one eats, talks, moves, walks, sees; watch oneself without any guidance, just to see what is taking place; just to see why one is so deadly lethargic, bourgeois, heavy — why?
Q: Would you say, sir, that it’s a continual vigilance about nothing in particular?
K: No, no, no. It is not what… Don’t you want to know for yourself how to live without conflict? Don’t you want to know? Never to have any sorrow – which doesn’t mean vegetating, become dull, stupid, heavy — never to know fear; to be out of all this terrible mess. Don’t you want to find out? Apparently not.
Q: Yes, but for the wrong reasons.
K: Even the wrong reasons, maybe wanting to escape from this mess; but let’s find out if there is an escape, and not accept the escapes that everybody has given us.
Q: I would like to ask a question. There is a small minority, probably in every country, that starts off as children, the great brutality, whose minds are smashed and their only known thoughts are thoughts of fear. Could you give advice to these people when they come of a certain age, and of the people that help them?
K: Sir, that is a different question, isn’t it really, these so-called delinquent children. Are we discussing that now?
Q: No, I was thinking now on a person, you see, who… (inaudible) child, you see, who wants to get to the light, you see, but his mind is full of fear, the basis.
K: But are we that? I mean, o ne can talk about children and the people in charge of those children, that’s quite a different matter. But here we are… (inaudible) we are not quite delinquents, are we? Perhaps we may be, I don’t know.
(Laughter)
K: Look, sirs, I mean, most of us are coming to the end of life, so-called life. There is death. Don’t you want to know what it all means, to die, what is involved, if there is horror, if there is beauty, if there is something extraordinary in that state? How do you answer all these questions? Do you repeat what you have read? Or do you want to find out? If you want to find out what it means to die, living in… with full vigour, not diseased; vital, strong, healthy. If you want to find out what it means to die, which is, you have to find out, not just pop off without any intelligence; and to find out you need energy, you need a very sharp mind, uncluttered by fear. So how do we… no, or rather, what is preventing us, each one of us, from having this intensity, this demand, the urgency to find out?
Q: (Inaudible) clutter… (inaudible).
K: What, sir?
Q: Is it not the clutter… (inaudible)?
K: All right, then what will you do about it? (Pause) You see, sir, I met the other day in India a man who has given up the world. He has taken to a life of a mendicant, roaming all over the… in India, from village to village, very well-educated and comparatively intelligent and he has spent his life, from the age of thirty, when he had a very good job which he gave up, till he’s… he said he was about seventy-five. He has done all kinds of things: meditated, fasted, went from one teacher to another. At the age of seventy-five he said, ‘I’m fed up with all this, because I’m coming to the end of things and I haven’t found it. I’ve done all these things that the teachers have demanded. I’ve lived a life of poverty, chastity. I don’t want anything, except food and clothes’, but that’s… even then in India that’s fairly easy. But he said that, after all these forty or fifty years, he hasn’t found a thing original. You understand what I mean? Not… he has projected his own visions of gods and ladies — you know? – all that nonsense, but the real thing, he hasn’t found it. And he said, ‘I met a great many people who believe in God’ — believe, you understand, believe — ‘but who don’t know what it means. And I’m… as I am coming to the end of things, and I’d really like to know.’
He had read a great deal about science; he was… I believe he was quite good as a mathematician, and there he was, stuck, lost, in despair, at seventy-five — you understand? — having played with everything, and played seriously, not just superficially; gone into it ruthlessly with himself. We are not like that. We are more or less played with things superficially – you know what we are, rather slack, lazy, dull.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: He has not found, sir. I said, sir.
Q: And so, although he was… (inaudible) seriously looking.
K: And… I know.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: He… You see… He and I talked a great deal. He came to see me several times, we went into things and that was quite all right; he was out of certain things, but I’m just saying, I was pointing out, as, with most of us, we are rather superficial, easily pleased; circumstances drive us; we don’t break, we don’t stand up, we don’t cut away and be something, or nothing. And even if we do, we have not the mind to penetrate the darkness of our own thoughts. And what do we do? (Pause) Please, I’m not trying to depress you. If you are so easily depressed, then I’m sorry.
Q: You want us to see what we actually do, sir — yes? — what is in our mind.
K: That’s right, sir. Not only what is actually in your mind, but to go further, much more deeply than that… most analysts have done that.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: They have done it according to Jung, Freud or somebody or other, but to go beyond all this. You understand, sir?
Q: I see, yes. I see what you mean. You mean to know that you have got… (inaudible).
K: To throw off all those things.
Q: Yes.
K: To know them and to throw off all those things and go further, to find out.
Q: No matter how important they might have been.
K: No…
Q: Something without an anchor.
K: That’s right, sir.
Q: (Inaudible)… without an anchor.
K: Yes sir.
Q: Can you throw them off?
K: The gentleman asked can you throw them off. You know what… what gives continuity to thought? Have you considered that matter? Why has thought continuity?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Why?
Q: (Inaudible).
Q: We want to be secure.
K: You want to be secure. I’ll show it to you; it’s so simple.
Q: I see in myself that any attempt to understand… (inaudible). I see this quite clearly… (inaudible).
K: Yes sir, but I’m… we’re just asking, what gives continuity to thought?
Q: I see thought as the problem in myself. I see that I am continually trying to analyse, understand things, and this is the avoidance of the problems that I face. I never meet the problem. I merely… (inaudible) thought without the problem.
K: Yes, that’s right. Now, go a little further and ask what gives vitality to thought and continuity to thought?
Q: Memory.
Q: (Inaudible).
Q: Is it fear of not thinking?
Q: Is it perhaps… (inaudible) relying upon thought… (inaudible)?
K: Look, sir, I’ll… Look, I’ll tell you; I’ll show it to you. I mean, you don’t have to believe, just watch yourself. You think about something which gives you pleasure and you keep on thinking about that thing which gives you pleasure — there it is: you have given continuity to thought. Thought has given itself continuity by thinking about something constantly which gives it pleasure.
Q: If I want security… (inaudible)…
K: Ah, no, no; no, no. Begin with the simple thing first, sirs.
Q: What about the unpleasant… (inaudible)?
K: And I don’t want to think about it.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: No, look, first… Look at this, sirs. Thought has continuity because it thinks about something that gives it pleasure. The lovely walk I had yesterday, the happy memories, remembrances, I think about that and I’ve given it life and continuity. And I’ve had pain, things that are unpleasant; I’m pushing them away. I don’t want to think about them; I’m pushing them. So the one I am pushing away, the other I want, I think about. The action is the same, isn’t it? Thought gives continuity to both. I don’t want and I want. You try some time; you do it. Not try, actually do it. A pleasurable thought arises — look at it, don’t think any more about it. So you will see, if you understand the whole mechanism of this process, that the mind doesn’t bear the burden of many yesterdays.
Q: I think, sir, it’s… (inaudible) that the mind also thinks it can repeat the pleasure. That’s what… (inaudible).
K: Yes sir, but that’s just it. You know, sex without thought and with thought are two different things. You think it out, sir.
Q: (Inaudible)… I feel that I don’t want to be in this present. I don’t want to be… (inaudible). I see that it is continually a defensive mechanism — I’m trying to live in the past where there is security… (inaudible).
K: Ah, why…what do you mean by the past, which is memory of the things that I’ve had and so on and so on and so on? Why? No, please, sir, would you go into this just one thing completely to the very end?
Q: Yes, I… (inaudible).
K: Go… give your whole energy to find this out. I live in the past, the happy days of my youth, the pleasures, the appetites, the lust, the enjoyment. The past is tremendously important to me and I’m constantly going back to that because the present is not very inviting. The present has very little meaning; it’s rather dull, going to the beastly office every day, the boredom, the routine, the insult to human dignity. And also I would like to be a successful, big, rich, powerful man and I can’t so I go back to the past and I live with that. See what happens. I live in the past and I have… every challenge that comes to me is translated in terms of the past and therefore increase the conflict. Right? You’re following all…? And the greater the conflict… the more urgency to escape, which is a neurotic state.
I’m just describing, I’m not condemning. I’m just describing what happens to all of us. So the division between the actual and what I would like grows wider and wider and wider, and the tension becomes greater and greater, and if I have capacity, I… that tension produces literature, painting, or I become a fantastic neurotic entity with having certain capacities for speaking, for politics, and for religion… (inaudible). Or I invent a philosophy to make the best of the present: Life is dull, stupid, has no meaning, let’s make the best of the present. You follow? That’s the state we live in. I realise that, that’s my state, if I… that’s my state – it’s not, but I realise that, then what do I do?
How do I break away from the past, because I see the whole pattern of my existence, not just one fragmentary section of it, but I see the whole of it and I realise I must break away, otherwise I become more and more neurotic, more and more live in greater and greater tension. So I see that the past acting or shadowing the present determines the future in which I’m caught again. You…? Not the distant future – tomorrow. So that’s my whole circle of existence. Now, how do I break away from it? As I said, we are going to go into it completely. How do I break away from it?
Q: (Inaudible)… break away from it.
K: Wait, wait, wait. All right, then it’s finished. If you say, ‘I cannot break away from it…’
Q: No, no. I think one cannot… (inaudible) on the action, on the reality is an avoidance. I see that… (inaudible) clearly myself, that anything I do… (inaudible) anything I do… (inaudible).
K: So what am I to do?
Q: Why should one do anything if one sees that?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Beg your pardon?
Q: (Inaudible)… to break away… (inaudible) break away… (inaudible).
K: Look, please, just… Look at the two questions that have been put: Why should I break away from it; and whatever I do, whatever I do is still furthering either the past or the future in conflict. Right? But I have to do something, haven’t I? I can’t just live in this. I must find a way which will not give continuity to conflict by doing something and therefore strengthening the past, the present, and all the rest of it, and also I can’t just leave it alone and say, ‘Well, something will happen.’ I have to find a way to crawl out of this. So what am I to do?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: No, no. I’ve… we’ve done all that. I mean, *un moment*; I mean, just a minute, please. We’ve done all that. I’ve examined why I go back to the past. As I said just now, the present is so boring: the routine, the incessant demands of the wife or the husband — you know? — all the business of it. So I know the whole intricacies of this. I watch them. So what am I to do? What do you do? Don’t quote me or anybody. What do you do? Given the fact, and that is the fact, what will you do?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Are you frightened?
Q: Yes.
K: Why?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: You are frightened only when…. Oh, sir, yes, all right, you tell me. You say you’re frightened of the next step. What do you mean by that?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: But you know – please follow this – you know that if you continued in the way you have, it only furthers conflict.
Q: Yes.
K: And you also know that you can’t leave it alone. You’ll… something has to take place. Right? And if you’re frightened, you’re back again in your… in the desire to escape from this.
Q: I’m frightened… (inaudible).
K: Frightened?
Q: There won’t be any… (inaudible) anymore.
K: Any? I can’t hear.
Q: Rest or peace… (inaudible).
K: Oh, there won’t be… as though what we have is rest or peace.
(Laughter)
K: No, you’re not going through to the end of it. You’re just… stop in the middle.
Q: If one is frightened of the next step, that means one must know what the next step is which means it’s part of the original process… (inaudible).
K: Yes, you’re back again. You see the…
Q: Yes, but I do know what the next step is.
K: What is the next step?
Q: The next step is… (inaudible).
K: What? What is the next step, sir?
Q: One is the thought. There is no self separate from the thought.
K: Ah, no, no, no. Those are just ideas.
Q: No, it’s not an idea… (inaudible).
K: Therefore, if you have experienced it, it has become the past, which is guiding you now.
Q: Yes…
K: Ah, therefore you’re back again.
Q: Yes, but there… (inaudible) movements.
K: Therefore what…? Accept all that. What do you do?
Q: Die.
Q: (Inaudible).
(Laughter)
Q: I find I don’t know what to do.
Q: (Inaudible)… objective disassociation?
K: How can you disassociate from something of which you are a part? You are that. You are this past, present, and future, with all the conflicts, the mess, the memories that… you are that. How can you disassociate yourself from that, of which you are a part?
Q: But the very fact… (inaudible) to disassociate… (inaudible) is so overwhelming because there is no path, no way, no method.
K: Therefore what do you do?
Q: (Inaudible)… observe. Observe… (inaudible).
K: You don’t go through this carefully step-by-step. You’re jumping and…
Q: (Inaudible)… follow ideals which we have… (inaudible).
K: The ideals which you have, what… Sir, what does… what do they do? They create more conflict. The lovely ideals of peace, goodness, beauty…
Q: We surely don’t know what to do… (inaudible).
K: Wait, wait. You see, you’re too… you don’t go step by step, sir, and then you will see it for yourself. You’re so eager to… There it is, this whole pattern of our existence, and whatever you do, you being part of this pattern, either accentuate, give strength, or push it away from you, but you are still the part of it. So… — you follow? — so you realise… – what do you realise?
Q: That you’re stuck… (inaudible).
Q: You do nothing and… (inaudible).
K: Ah, wait. The gentleman suggests that you do nothing, be passive. Because if you say, ‘I know what to do’, you are only furthering the past, aren’t you? Right? And therefore back again in the old turmoil. So you say, ‘I really don’t know what to do.’ Right? Would you say that? Actually I don’t know. I have looked to religions, I have tried various tranquillisers, I have taken this instant mystic pills, that… ten different things…
(Laughter)
K: Oh, yes… Please. I have done everything and I haven’t… the thing hasn’t gone from me, I’m part of… I’m still the aching wound of all this. So what do I do? So I say I can’t do anything. That is the old demand that I must do something — you follow? — because we are so used to doing something. And that demand, the repetitive demand that I must do keeps on repeating. So I have first to say, well, I can’t do any thing, which doesn’t mean I am in despair. I can’t do anything about the weather. So what has happened to my mind that has seen this whole pattern, the intricacies of this pattern, all the nuances, the various movements involved in this pattern, I’m very familiar with it, and I also know that if I do anything, act upon it, I am still, being part of it, I’m only strengthening that, either negatively or positively. You’re following all this? Very clear? Right. Then what takes place in my mind? I’m not depressed, because I’m only depressed if I say I must get out of it and I can’t.
Q: The mind is still… (inaudible).
K: You’re not… you don’t go through it. Go into it very deeply, step by step. Don’t jump to any conclusion; then you’re lost.
Q: We come to a choiceless awareness.
K: Watch it, sir, don’t… Look at it. So, what has happened – please… – what has happened to the mind which has always been active in doing something — you follow? — going back, looking, enjoying or pushing it away, doing something all the time, hammering at something all the time, suddenly realises that any activity on its part creates further conflict. Right? So what does it do?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Follow it, sirs, please. Don’t answer me; look at it.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: I don’t accept it. I can’t accept something which is part of myself. That would be too silly. I don’t identify myself, because that’s me. I’ve played all those tricks. So I say now, what is the state of the mind, which has been so active in doing something, suddenly realises – realises, not intellectually but actually realises that it is not capable of doing anything? Right? Now, what is that state of mind that says… that has… suddenly realise it can’t do anything about itself?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: No, no, no, no. You see… please, don’t describe it to me. Find out what is that state for yourself.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Beg your pardon?
Q: You don’t want us to tell you.
K: Tell me, but wait, wait; *piano*; go slowly.
Q: To find out… (inaudible).
K: Tell us that which is authentic, real; not repetitive.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Wait…
(Laughter)
K: Wait, sir, go slowly. You understand the issue, the problem? I have done everything. I’ve joined this church, gone to that church, belong to this political party, became a communist, a socialist, a revolutionary, and denying everything and escaping from it all into my past, into my pleasures, into my… all that I’ve done, and I realise that now, after doing all this, the utter futility of all that, the waste of time and energy of all that. And I realise what my mind has been doing; the mind realises itself what it has been doing and therefore it says, ‘I won’t do a thing now. Let’s see what happens.’ You follow? I’ve done everything and it has produced nothing, more mess, more confusion, more sorrow, and it says, ‘I’ve done all this and now I won’t do a thing.’
Q: It’s completely… (inaudible).
K: Wait, wait. What, sir?
Q: It’s completely facing the fact…
K: Ah?
Q: …(inaudible) do nothing… (inaudible) completely facing the fact.
K: Ah, ah… No, no. Go into it, sir. What is the state of the mind? You’re not answering me. What is the state of the mind that says, ‘I can’t do anything’?
Q: The mind comes to an end… (inaudible).
Q: Waiting to be informed.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Wait; wait, sir. Someone says, ‘Waiting to be informed’ — follow that through — waiting to be informed. Who is going to inform you? Another saviour? Another Marx? Another bishop? Another scientist? Who is going to inform you? And what are you waiting for? And if you wait and if you have a response, somebody answers you and you say, ‘I like that reply; I’ll accept it.’ What makes you accept it? That means you recognise that it will be useful. Right? And that recognition is… belongs to the past.
Q: (Inaudible)… the mind is aware.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: No, you’ve not gone… you don’t… you haven’t gone into it. You don’t watch it very, very slowly and carefully. You want an… you want to find a word to translate it immediately.
Q: I would say it is the state of inquiry.
K: The gentleman says that it’s in a state of inquiry.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: That may be his state, sir.
Q: We don’t know… (inaudible) and we can’t… (inaudible).
K: You will tell me the moment it is real.
Q: No, I don’t.
K: Yes, sir, you will see it in a minute.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Ah?
Q: (Inaudible).
Q: Are you saying… (inaudible) the mind to do something about the problem is the problem?
K: We said that, sir. The mind wants to do something about this and it realises that whatever it does is still within the field and therefore abstains from all action.
Q: But… (inaudible) problem and then (inaudible).
K: Wait, wait. I’m asking what is the state of the mind, because it’s very important if you go into it; it’s really important.
Q: I would think it would classified because… (inaudible) if you get to the stage… (inaudible).
Q: A state of not knowing.
Q: (Inaudible).
Q: (Inaudible)… there’s still a lot of movement going on, so I think that subconsciously I’m still searching for a way out. I haven’t said this to myself there is… (inaudible).
K: That’s what is taking place, isn’t it, really? At a conscious level it’s fairly saying, ‘I don’t know, I mustn’t act’, but deep down there is… boiling going on, wanting to find a way out. So look what is happening. At the conscious level is quiet, say, ‘I don’t know. I mustn’t act.’ At the unconscious level, deep down, the weight of the past is pushing. Isn’t it? So you have already created a division and a conflict between the two. Right? Whether you are conscious of it or not, that’s irrelevant, but… that’s the fact. So you have to find out whether you can be, both consciously as well as unconsciously, abstain from all action — you understand? — right through.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Ah?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: You understand? Have I made myself clear?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: I may say I won’t do anything, but in my dreams, when I’m not watching, the unconscious is moving, saying, ‘For goodness sake, do something, otherwise you will go to pieces, you will rot, you will this, you…’ So there is a conflict going on of which I may be conscious or unconscious. So I have to find out how to completely stop the whole mechanism. I’m passive at one level, active at another level. Sir, we are not playing tricks. This is a very serious thing.
Q: Is it that I can’t find out or is it that I can’t verify?
K: I’m… I… I’m going to go into it a little bit, slowly. First see the issue, the problem involved. So I’ve got a problem now. I realise… superficially I must… there must be no action because I can’t do anything. Unconsciously there is activity going on. Now, how am I to understand that and also bring that to an end — you follow? — that activity? I must… it must be a total thing, not a partial thing. So what am I to do? How am I to investigate into the unconscious so as to bring that to an end? You follow?
Can I… can the conscious mind investigate the unconscious? But the conscious mind has its root in the unconscious — you understand? — the two are not separate. You understand this? The conscious mind has its roots in the unconscious. It may be quiet on the surface, no leaves are moving in the breeze, but the roots and the whole thing is tremendously active. So how is the conscious mind, which is… which says, ‘I must abstain’ going to investigate into that thing which is active? You understand the issue? Shall I turn to the analysts? Go to a psychiatrist? Interpret the dreams of which I have every night? And those dreams to be translated depends either on the professionals or on myself. You’re following all this?
Many: (Inaudible).
K: And each interpretation depends on my conditioning, on my desires, on my… You follow? So I… so I see… What do I see?
Q: The difficulty is the unconsciousness… (inaudible) be aware of the conscious.
K: Yes. So what am I… what is one to do?
Q: Is it the state of alert… (inaudible)?
K: The gentleman says just being… be alertly watchful. First of all, why have we divided this thing as conscious and unconscious? Why do I say consciously I have seen that I… that… there must be no action? Why hasn’t the unconscious seen, or the conscious hasn’t… consciousness has not seen it at all, or merely states. I don’t know if you’re following this. So I’m back again to the problem: Is partial seeing seeing? Partially I see. Is that seeing? Partially I say to myself I must abstain from all action.
So I say to myself: do I really understand this thing, that given this problem as it is, which is a fact, and anything I do about this, anything, at whatever level, is futile, empty, waste of energy? It is not a conviction — you follow? — it is not mere statement of something which I’ve heard. It is not a conclusion; it is not a concept; it’s a fact that I can’t do anything. Right? And when I say it, it is a fact, right through me. Not at the conscious level, and at the unconscious level it’s not. I see this thing completely and therefore there is complete cessation of action. So one has to find out if you see it completely. Partial seeing, partial awareness is absolutely useless, like… partially understanding something — it doesn’t mean a thing.
So do I see this pattern of the past… — you know? — the whole thing, completely? If you see it completely then the brain… the brain including as well as the mind, because the mind… the brain is part of the mind, which… We won’t go into all that for the time being. So the brain as well as the mind comprehends completely that the total inactivity, therefore there is no conflict within itself — you follow? — so it is in a state of complete inaction. But it’s not asleep, it is not waiting for an answer, it is not waiting to be informed, it is not seeking a way out – it has tried all… been through all that. So when it says it is completely inactive, it is a fact. It’s a fact to me — you follow? — not… whether you accept it or not is irrelevant. To me it is a fact, completely, and from there I can proceed. It has not been convinced that it must be inactive. It hasn’t been… there’s been no propaganda made to make it inactive. It sees that it… it sees for itself that any action with regard to itself is utterly useless. So I say to myself: What is the state of this mind?
(Pause)
Q: (Inaudible).
Q: It becomes available.
K: The gentleman suggests it becomes available. To whom? To what?
Q: To what is.
K: Available to what is. (Pause) You see, sir, this is rather important thing to discover for oneself; to discover, not to be told, not to be made a plaything of. To discover for oneself.
Q: Which is the only important thing.
K: Yes, sir, it’s the only important thing, because then, if you discover it, you are free of circumstances; you’re not driven by circumstances, environment. All that belongs to the past and the present – you know? – all the business, and therefore you’re not dependent. It is not dependent. Go into it, you will see it for yourself. Then… Shall I go on?
Q: Yes… (inaudible).
K: No, no, wait a minute…
Q: Krishnaji, I suspect we are going round in circles… (inaudible) as we move away from the central issue… (inaudible) one moment… (inaudible). You are talking on the level that is to you factual… (inaudible). I suggest that… (inaudible) return to this point… (inaudible) here we are at this crucial point where we see that the conscious level… (inaudible) and yet there is a subterranean drive going on which… (inaudible).
K: Quite right, sir; quite right.
Q: Can we not… (inaudible)?
K: All right, let’s stick at it.
Q: Otherwise the question invites speculation… (inaudible).
K: Quite right, sir.
Q: I think we are; we are… (inaudible). I think we are (inaudible).
K: All right. You understand the question which has been raised? He said for most of us the conscious mind, the surface mind may be fairly quiet, may be… may have realised the futility of action. We are talking in that context. I mean, if you just say futility of action, they will say, ‘Poor chap, he is cuckoo,’ but we are talking in this context. And there is this drive of the unconscious at deeper levels — don’t even let’s call it unconscious – at the deeper levels of which I am not aware there is this drive. The conscious mind is not aware of it and so there is a division. How is the conscious mind to understand the deeper levels and be so completely united — you follow? — one, so that the whole thing perceives or doesn’t perceive? It is not a division; it’s not a fragment. So that is the problem. How do you proceed?
The unconscious mind or the deeper layers of the mind is the result of million years, with all the drive, the impetus, tradition, the custom, the habit, the racial inheritance – you know? – all that. And the conscious mind says to it, ‘Why aren’t you with me? I understand this, that there must be cessation of… I understand it very well, but why aren’t you also with me?’ Right? Now, what is going to make… what will make this completely one? What catalyst is necessary?
Q: (Inaudible)… separation between the conscious and unconscious… (inaudible).
K: Oh yes, I… we said… I said it’s like a… – you know? — that, as they have said, nine-tenths under the water and the surface, one-tenth.
Q: Yes, but you see, we must be very careful… (inaudible) one must appreciate the fact… (inaudible).
K: Yes, sir, it’s very real but it’s artificial reality.
Q: Oh yes… (inaudible)…
K: That’s all; that’s all.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Quite. We have understood that.
Q: So you don’t want to… (inaudible) separation of trying to look into the unconscious… (inaudible).
K: No, no. It is all one. I said at the beginning, the conscious mind has its roots in the unconscious. The leaves on the top may be quiet, but deep down it’s not quiet, there is a noise going on and all the rest of it. Now, how am… how is this mind to realise totally? That’s the question. You understand? How will you answer this question? Nobody is going to teach you. Right? Nobody is going to tell you.
Q: How do I make contact with another… (inaudible)?
K: No, that is not the question.
Q: But it’s my problem.
K: No, it is… you’re putting a wrong question, and therefore you can’t find the right answer. Please, do listen to what… You are… Please, may I request you, don’t please translate what you hear into your own terminology. Just listen. You know, consciousness is like the iceberg. There is nine-tenths under the water, below, and little bit, one-tenth is showing on top. The one-tenth says, ‘I understand,’ and the rest is in darkness. It is not how the one-tenth will get into contact with the unconscious because it is still… it is in contact — you follow? — it is part of it. You can’t get into contact with it, it… the whole thing is a part. We have divided for convenience only.
Q: I think this unconscious comes up because… (inaudible). You are constantly becoming conscious all the time.
K: Ah… I’m…
Q: So I think that it doesn’t stay the unconscious… (inaudible).
K: No, madame. I think we are making a mistake when we say the conscious and unconscious. Let’s cut out all that.
Q: Well, it becomes the movement… (inaudible).
K: One part of me – please – one part of me realises certain things, the other does not. Right? One part says, ‘By Jove, I see this point very clearly.’ The other part is hesitating, dragging its feet, far away.
Q: I don’t think we do see it clearly… (inaudible).
K: That’s just it; that’s just it. So when we say — that’s one of the problems – when we say, ‘I see it consciously on the surface’, it is really not seeing at all. The next problem is not that I… the conscious mind should become… investigate, or get into contact with the unconscious. That’s a wrong question. You’re going back to the analyst and the… — you follow? — all that business. The question is: why is there this fragmentary division, fragmentary understanding? Why is there not total understanding? Right, sir? Why?
Q: I don’t think… (inaudible).
K: Beg your pardon sir?
Q: We’re not at all sure… (inaudible) put it that way.
K: What? We’re not sure…?
Q: As to what there is… (inaudible).
K: Ah, no, no; no, no. Not what is… there is to understand. Look, I see as much as I can see the pattern of my life — right? — the conflicts, the past, the present, the future, the misery, this whole pattern of my life. And I also see that whatever I do only increases, intensifies this mess. And I don’t see this completely. You follow? I see partially.
Q: Yes.
K: If I saw it completely the thing is over.
Q: It’s over, you mean…
K: Ah… this problem ceases to be.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: I’m… No.
Q: Not for… (inaudible).
K: It ceases to be, not…. No, you’re putting a wrong question.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: Ah, ah… It ceases to be. Wait, sir. Don’t let’s bother what happens after.
Q: So our memories, our memories and ideas about… (inaudible) this to come about, our pre-conditioning.
K: That’s right. Your conditioning…. We know that. Now I… I want stick to this one thing, as that gentleman points out. My understanding is partial. It’s not a complete understanding. You understand? Now, what am I to do? All my activity is partial in my life — you follow? — it is never anything complete, total. I’m little angry, I’m a little… I’m affectionate, I am this, but it’s not a complete, free, full, rich thing. What am I to do?
Q: To increase an awareness of the problem.
K: Be more informed of the problem? Look at the map more closely? See all the rivers, the lanes, the cities, the villages, everything? I have done that. I can add more details — you follow? — but it’ll all be details still. But I have done that. You’re not following this. You are hesitating.
Q: (Inaudible)… and we don’t really see… (inaudible). We don’t see it… (inaudible).
K: That’s right, sir.
Q: Otherwise… (inaudible).
K: Look, sir, if you saw a snake, poisonous snake, there is no division between the conscious and the unconscious.
Q: Yes.
K: There is immediate action — either run away, do something.
Q: (Inaudible)…I’m not in immediate danger… (inaudible).
K: No, wait, wait, wait, wait. You are… Just look at it, sir; look at it. Look at it. You do not see totally the poisonous nature of action in this context. You only see partially the poison. Now, what is going to make you see the total nature of the poison of action? Right, sir? What is going to make you see?
Q: (Inaudible).
K: No, do listen. Please, don’t answer me. Do look at it. What is going to make you? More pressures, more tensions, more pain, more agony? That is, waiting for circumstances to waken you. Right? Are you following this? That is, pressures from outside forcing you to wake up. Right? Is that what you’re waiting for?
Q: No, not waiting.
K: Why do you say no? Wait sir, don’t say no. Is that what you… what will make you see the whole thing as poisonous? I’m afraid you are, because you are… I am doing that to you, am I not? I am forcing you to look, to find out.
Q: Who forced you to look, sir?
K: Me?
Q: Yes.
K: No… – wait, wait; quite right — nobody did. Nobody did. But you’re waiting for somebody to tell you, to force you, to egg you on, encourage you, so you are dependent on circumstances. Right? Whether it’s nice circumstances, pleasurable or… you are dependent. So if you realise the moment you are dependent you are in… back again in conflict, then you will never depend — finished. Right?
Q: Or be free to realise that.
K: So what will make us see, in this context, that any form of action is totally poisonous?
Q: Any form of action in regard to a certain type of conflict, you mean?
K: No, no.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: I have made it all clear. We’ve spent an hour and a half. I… we can’t go back to it, if you don’t mind.
Q: (Inaudible)… if I want to know… (inaudible). That type of non-activity… (inaudible) I have to say, ‘Okay, I will die,’ and try to be at peace… (inaudible).
K: We are talking of total action, not tomorrow’s action or today’s action.
Q: (Inaudible).
K: I think we’d better stop, really. It’s now… we’ve talked for an hour and thirty-five minutes. We’ll pick it up, probably… — not probably — we will on Friday, this issue. What will make us or help us to see that any action from me, who is part of this mess, only increases more pain, more confusion, more misery? What will help me, what will… what is the catalyst that will bring this complete perception, so that when I perceive it I’m out of it? You follow? I mean, I don’t… nobody has to tell me that snake is a poison. It’s finished. I don’t go near it, touch it.
Next Friday.