K School Discussion 1, Brockwood Park, 24 September 1973

I’m afraid I don’t know most of you, but we’ll get to know each other presently. I wonder if you are aware, or know, what we are trying to do at Brockwood. We are living in a small community, about a hundred people, in a rather beautiful countryside. And we want to make, if we can, a school in a community which probably doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world, though there are several schools with which we are connected in India, five of them, and there’ll be one started in California. But we want to make, or bring about a school — which is really not a good word to use — where we are all concerned with the total education of everyone, both the teacher, the educator and the student. That is the real purpose of this place, where the intellect, the brain, the mind, is cultivated, where also the body, good health, good food, games. And also the sensitivity that comes with clear, strong emotions, feelings. And that implies a total education of each one of us, mentally, morally, physically.

And I do not know if you are aware what is happening in the world — there is the communist bloc, the extreme left, politically, in Russia, in China, and Eastern Europe, and there is the capitalist society, which is the West and America, democracies opposed to totalitarianism, and there is the whole undeveloped countries, the Arabs, India, South East Asia and so on. Politically they are trying to bring about socialism with democracy. Probably you know all this, don’t you. That’s what they tried to do in Chile, when their President shot himself, from what one reads, and military have taken charge politically and economically and socially. So they are experimenting politically and economically as socialism with democracy. I’m telling you all this because you should know about it, a little bit. And apparently that is not succeeding. So there are the leftists who want revolution, because they say society cannot be changed without tremendous upheaval, with bloodshed and all the rest of it, with violence. And the extreme right say, we’ll prevent that, we want our way, which is conservatism, capitalism, free enterprise and so on. And there are the Arabic world against Israel, the Pakistanis against India and so on and on and on.

That is the state of the world: confusion, war, hatred, national divisions, and every form of chicanery, deception, politically. And religiously, it’s all also going to pieces, because Catholicism is declining, and there are various expressions of religious endeavour, with their gurus from India, and others, who are trying to convert people to their particular form of belief and ritual and guru worship. That is what is happening in the world: confused, brutal, violent, and very destructive, really destructive, morally, in every way. Organisations are taking over man, machinery is taking the place of intelligence.

And that is the world from which we come to this place. And you come, if I may point out, already conditioned. You understand what that word means? Already shaped intellectually, morally and physically, to a particular pattern of behaviour, particular way of thinking. And you come here, if one may point out, with all that background. Please listen, and then we’ll discuss afterwards. You ask me questions, we’ll discuss — I’m going to make you talk, not just keep quiet. Not make you, force you, I can’t, but I want — we must talk over these things together, then it is worthwhile. And with that background you come here, with your reactions, your strong opinions, what is right, what is wrong, that you’re free, that you’re independent, that you must grow long hair, short hair, and that you must put on this dress, that dress — you’re full of opinions, judgements, and conclusions. And also what you think is freedom. And we have to meet all that, meet you, your background, your opinions, your judgements, your peculiarities, and we have to live together, all of us together, though I’m going away next month, to India and Italy and all the rest of it, we have to live together. You may say you are a lucky chap, going away from here. But the others have to live with you and you have to live with the others.

Now, how is this possible? You understand my question? You’ve come with all your prejudices, with your conditioning, with your ideas of what freedom is, and your ideas of self-expression, that you must do this in order to be yourself. And we want or think, feel, that education is not merely the cultivation of memory, memory with regard to historical, biological, mathematical facts, and the cultivation of that apparently has become tremendously important in the world, in order to get a job. And in order to get a job you must pass an examination, have a degree after you, whether you’re intelligent, whether you’re capable or whether you are not, doesn’t matter as long as you have a degree and so on.

Our problem, yours and ours, the grown-up people and the younger people, our problem is together, how can we bring about a total education? That is, an education that is concerned not only with the development of the brain, but also have a very good body, because if you haven’t a good, sensitive, strong body, you can’t possibly function normally. And also how to bring about a sensitivity in relationship, in a small community as this, so that we have affection, care, consideration, regard for each other, that we don’t trample on each other, as the world is doing. Can this be brought about? And that is right education: the total, sane education in relationship, in which all the factors of consideration, affection, care exist.

As far as I am concerned, that is the function of Brockwood, where you flower, and I really mean it — flower, and you cannot flower if you are not free. So we must understand together what freedom means. Together, not what you think what freedom is, or what I think or others think freedom is, together find out what freedom is, what independence is, what expression of ourselves in that freedom means. Right? So that is the first thing: what is freedom. You’re going to be here for eight months, oh, I don’t know how long, quite a considerable time. During that time this is your home. And you may interpret that word ‘home’ to suit you, what you think home should be, which may be contradictory to what another thinks home is. So we must be clear on that point too. Because freedom exists where one feels at home, it doesn’t matter where you are — the feeling of freedom and the feeling of that is really, basically, the essence of home.

Now, so we must find out together — I’m not going to tell you and you’re not going to tell me what freedom is, but together — you understand? — you and I, we and you, are going to think out very carefully what freedom is. Because in the communist world it doesn’t exist. In the capitalist world they think freedom exists, but it isn’t there, because we have become slaves to propaganda, to organisations, to machinery, to so-called education. I wonder if you follow all this — are you following all this? So it doesn’t exist in the world. And we, if we are going to be totally educated, all round, for us freedom is absolutely important to find out what it means and live that, not theoretically, verbally, but actually. So what does freedom mean? You know, to find out the significance of that word, with its abstractions — am I all right, are you following all this? Because freedom is an abstraction, is a word, is an idea, and we must find out together what it means in our life, because we are going to live together, for the next eight months, in relationship with each other. And if we don’t understand what freedom is, we’re going to hurt each other. So it’s absolutely imperative to find out what freedom is.

How does one find out? You can only find out by negating what it is not. Right? You understand what I’m saying? Negating, that is, saying this is not freedom, this is not freedom. By saying, seeing what is not freedom, freedom is. You understand? Je peux continuer? Vous avez compris? Bien, allons-y.

So we are going to find out together — I keep on repeating that word ‘together’ because that is important, because we’re living together, whether here or in the world, we are related. So what is not freedom? Now, look at it first, from a very broad point of view, or what is not freedom right through the world. Begin with religion, because that’s one of the most important factors in human beings, religion. Take any religion, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and you see there it is essentially based on authority of a book, authority of a person, authority of a priest, or the authority of tradition. So organised religions throughout the world have this concept of authority. There is the saviour, the guru, the master who knows and we, poor chaps, don’t know, and the priest comes and says, we will interpret the grace to you. So there is authority there.

Then there is the authority of the totalitarian governments, based on Lenin, Mao, Marx, and they have laid down certain principles which you can never touch, they are absolute realities. So there too, authority dominates. You are following all this? Gregory, right? We’re going to get at each other’s throat presently!

And there is the authority of knowledge, experience, stored in the scientist, in the professor, in the doctor and so on. And freedom then is not authority. Right? Please listen carefully, because you’re going to have trouble presently. So we say, where there is authority there is no freedom. The scientists, the various forms of science, have accumulated tremendous knowledge, and that knowledge is authority, obviously. You can’t do without it, you have to accept that authority. There is the authority of law — you may dislike that law, you may want to change it, you may have the capacity to change it, but that law is the authority, like keeping to the left side of the road in England and the right side of the road in Europe. That is authority. And you come here, and we say, ‘Look, freedom means the absence of authority’. Right? And we have to live together, in a small community, in a limited space, each with his own peculiarity, opinion, conditioning, family tradition and all the rest of it — if one has a family tradition. Now, can we live together for eight months without authority? You are following all this? Because we said, freedom is absolutely necessary, otherwise you can’t flower, you’re diminished, stulted, you’re narrowed down, your brain, your heart, everything becomes small, and it is only in freedom that you can flower, grow, become extraordinary human beings. And can we live together here without authority? And yet co-operate, turn up at the right time for meals, go to bed at the right time, study. You follow? Which means that you are not looking for somebody to tell you go to bed. If they tell you to ‘go to bed’, at that time which we have agreed to, it doesn’t mean they become authority. You are following all this? They tell you, because we have agreed that we should go to bed at a certain time for reasons of health and so on and so on, and you forget it, sit up late, and somebody comes along and says, ‘Go to bed’, you don’t say, ‘That’s authority’, that would be silly. You don’t say to the English teacher, when he begins to instruct you about the language and the beauty of language in English literature and the expression in words of what you feel, when that teacher tells you this, you don’t say you’re authoritarian. He is teaching you, you’re learning. In learning therefore — please listen — in learning there is no authority. Right? In imposition there is authority. If you and I are learning together authority is not necessary. If you and I are learning together that we should go to bed at a certain time, I’ll be delighted to be reminded that I should go to bed too, at the right time, because I’m learning.

So the factor of learning is freedom. The factor of obstinacy, of thoughtlessness, of expressing one’s own dogma or opinion, is not freedom. I wonder if you are getting all this — it’s a little bit difficult. Don’t go to sleep, please. If you want to go to sleep, it’s all right. So is that one point clear? Can we talk about that? I said where there is learning, you’re learning and I am learning, in learning there is no authority. So learning demands freedom. Am I conveying anything to you? Come on, sir, discuss with me. Don’t go to sleep. Because you’re going to be up against it, in the days to come, because you don’t know what it means to learn, but you have come with the idea that freedom, freedom to be what you like to be. And when we say, ‘Look, that is, what you’re doing or thinking or acting is not for the good of the whole community’, then don’t assume that anybody’s authoritarian. But whereas, if we are learning together, learning, learning English, learning history, learning how to live, learning how to eat, how to hold fork and knife — learning, how to play games — when you’re playing games the man who says, ‘Hold the racket this way’, he’s not authoritarian. Are you getting what I’m talking? Are you really? Good. Because you’re going to find out presently how difficult it’s going to be. That’s one point, that is, where we are learning together, history, mathematics, or learning together what relationship is, to be related, that is living together, where there is learning, really serious learning, there is no authority.

If you and I are both learning, how can authority exist? I may know more, and you may know less, or you may know more than me, but I’m learning, and you’re also learning. You don’t assume I know, and you don’t know, I become your guru, or your master, or your — whatever you are. That exists only when we are not learning together. Is that clear?

So education is the acting, is the action of learning together about the world, about oneself, how to read, learn, write and learn about language, history, all that. And that, you can’t learn if you’re fixed in your opinions, obviously. Right? If you feel that something very strong and this is wrong, or what you think is right, to talk it over, to go into it, to explore. And to do that, one must be free to admit that my opinions are strong, let me look at it. That’s part of learning. Right?

And living together in a community of this kind, in a small space, relationship matters enormously. You know what that word means, ‘relationship’? Do you? Somebody tell me what it means, will you? What does relationship mean to you? Come on, sirs, tell me, use your — come on, don’t be silent. No? Are you all shy? Yes, sir.

Questioner: That means interaction between different people, interaction between people.

Krishnamurti: Interaction between people. Go on, tell me some more, what it means. What else does it mean, relationship mean to you? See, you’re learning now, we’re learning together. You have said, he said, relationship means interaction between people. What does it mean to you?

Q: I think it’s not only between people but also with all surroundings.

K: With nature. Go on, let’s add — we’re learning — interaction between people, interaction between nature and yourself, relationship between yourself and the environment, between yourself, in this small community, and the bigger community of the world. Right? Relationship between you and your father, mother, and your friends. Right? So what does the word mean to you? To you, not verbally, you understand? You have told me verbally what it means — right, sir? What do you feel is relationship, not the expression of that feeling into words, but what do you feel relationship is?

Q: Love and affection.

K: Love, you say, what does that mean? I don’t know what that word means.

Q: Love and affection.

K: I want to be clear — I’m not going to be caught by a word. What does relationship mean to you, the feeling of it, not the verbal expression of it — you understand the difference? Look, I can describe that tree, into words, but the description is not the tree. I can describe that copper — what’s that tree called?

Q: Copper beech.

K: Copper beech. I can describe that copper beech, but the description, the word is not the copper beech. Right? You’ve understood that? Now, you have described to me in words what relationship means: interaction between people, between nature and yourself, between yourself and the environment, between yourself and your friend, your girl, your boy, whatever it is, between yourself and the world at large. Right? Those are all descriptions, aren’t they? Now, what is the feeling of relationship? The feeling behind the word. You’re related to your parents, aren’t you? What is the feeling behind that relationship? Come on, sirs, what’s the matter with you?

Q: It’s acceptance of themselves.

K: Acceptance of what?

Q: Of the fact that they are there.

K: But behind the word, I’m asking you. They’re there, you are their son or their grandson, whatever it is, nephew, whatever it is, what is the feeling behind that word. Have you any feeling behind that word?

Q: Behind the word ‘Acceptance’?

K: No, behind the word of relationship. You’re related to your parents, whether it be uncle or whatever it is. What is the feeling behind that word ‘relationship’?

Q: That you have some connection with them?

K: What is the connection?

Q: It’s that you know the way they think, you have some knowledge of them.

K: Knowledge of what, of what they do? What they think? How they act, how they behave? They tell you not to smoke and smoke? They say don’t drink and drink? Don’t be sexual, and be sexual?

Q: It’s partly that.

K: Yes, partly. Then what is behind all that?

Q: Could it be affection?

K: I don’t know, you tell me.

Q: Affection one for the other.

K: No, I asked you, what is the feeling behind that word. He described, interaction between people. He says, connection, what they think, or acceptance of what they think, what they do, what they don’t do, and so on. Behind all that, what is your feeling, in that relationship? Fear?

Q: I think the feeling is not knowing, actually.

K: Fear, whether you… Not know — fear. Go into it –fear. What else is there? Go on, lady.

Q: Could it be emotion?

K: Could be.

Q: I have emotion towards my parents.

K: What is that emotion? What do you call that emotion? What do you see behind that? You’ve understood what I have said? I’m related to my father, mother. I know their ways of thinking, how they behave, how they talk, how they do this and that — I’m very familiar with that, I am related to them. What is my feeling in that relationship? Is it of fear; is it that they take care of me; is it that they give me clothes, therefore I must be grateful; is it that they tell me to do something, and I’ll do it, and therefore I’m in revolt? You understand all this? What is my feeling towards them? Or you don’t know your feelings towards them? Come on, sirs.

Q: Feeling of energies flooding through us.

K: Energy? My feeling of energy — what do you mean?

HT: It’s like when I have no relationships, everything seems dead and not so acute and sharp.

K: Yes, sir, but I’m asking — sorry, forgive me for repeating it — what is, when we say I’m related to my parents, my parents are related to me, I am related to them, what is the feeling behind that word? Or you have no feeling at all, just say, ‘Well, they are that way and I am that way, they feed me, clothe me, and send me to the school, and I do what I want to do’. Because it’s very important to find out what relationship means, because we’re going to live together.

Q: It seems that some of it is really a feeling of something quite the same though there is a separate person, some feeling of being the same with that person.

K: Do you feel the same with that person? Same in the sense, you are like them. Now, I want to get much deeper than that. All that you have told me so far is interaction, know what they think, do, all the rest of that. And you call that relationship. Right? And I say what is behind that? Antagonism, dislike, hatred, fear — I say ‘Oh, my God, I do obey them, they are so much older, they hold the money, string to the purse, therefore I have to knuckle down to them’. Is that your feeling? You have parents, for God’s sake. Or is there affection? Affection means consideration, care, feeling that you are together, that they are helping you and you are helping them, that you aren’t alone in the world, thrown out to a pack of wolves. All that’s implied in relationship, isn’t it? Affection, care, a feeling that they are going to look after you, they are concerned with you, they are concerned with your education, with your well-being, how you behave, how you — all that’s implied in that word ‘affection’. Right? Does that exist? Come on, sirs.

Now, that is relationship. You follow? Care, consideration, giving you security, feeling that you have somebody behind you, somebody who’s going to look after you, even though you make a mistake, he’ll help you to correct that mistake, because he has affection for you, and you have affection for him. You have care for him as well as he has care for you. That is the interaction, isn’t it? Right? And that is relationship. Right? And that’s what living in a community of this kind, that is what is going to take place, we’re going to be related to each other, not that you are threatened, that if you don’t do this you will be bullied. You follow? You are here to be taken care of, to be looked after. That’s part of affection, isn’t it? That in that affection that we’ll tell each other, care for each other, be responsible for each other. When the house is set on fire, you don’t say, it’s your business and go out on the lawn and play games — it’s your house.

So freedom is learning, relationship is caring, consideration, politeness, affection, feeling that you are free to express yourself and correct it, learn together. And that is what Brockwood is, as far as I am concerned. The responsibility of learning, in freedom, and the responsibility of relationship, in which each of us care for each other, we are polite to each other, considerate to each other. If you come dirty, smelling, and I am sitting next to you, it is your irresponsibility, not my dislike of smell. You understand what I’m talking about? And all that means a place where we are at home with each other, that we trust each other — you don’t have to trust me because you don’t know me. But as you don’t know me, I don’t know you, we are learning about each other. Right? The learning and the feeling of learning is the beginning of trust, that you are learning, and I am learning. And that give tremendous feeling of trust. And that is the quality of a home: that we are all responsible for the whole place, for your rooms, the neatness of your rooms, the way you eat, the way you talk, the way you play, the way you learn — all that is each other’s responsibility. And responsibility in relationship, because you can’t live by yourself. And where there is responsibility, there is also this immense thing called affection, care, love and freedom.

Now, to me, this is Brockwood. Right? Sorry to talk about it for so long. Now, we discuss now. You’ve come here, some of you for the first time, homesick, nervous, apprehensive, distrusting, not knowing each other, suspicious, untidy, lazy, whatever. And can we learn about all this without the sense of authority, punishment and reward? That means having sensitivity about oneself and about another. Can we do this here? It’s our job, anyhow.

Now, shall we talk, discuss it? You might say what is there to discuss. There is a lot, because this problem of authority is going to arise. This problem of learning. Can you learn through the study of English literature, what it means to live wholly, completely, sanely? This is too much.

Look, I want to teach you, what? I want to teach you English — thank God I don’t have to teach you. But I want to teach you English. And also I am very interested in total education. You follow? That is your body, your mind, your heart, your way of living and thinking, the way you eat, the way you walk, the way you sleep — everything I’m interested in. As well as I want to teach you English. Right? Now can I teach you English in such way that we learn together about the whole? You’ve understood? I want, in teaching you English I want to show you the beauty of language, the beauty of the precise word, and in teaching you English I want to teach you the sense of beauty. You understand? Oh, come on! How to look at trees, how to look at the grass, the flowers, the birds, the whole shape of a hill, the beauty of a picture, the beauty of a building, the beauty of a single flower. You follow? So in teaching English, and the beauty of language, I also help, learn together beauty. And I say ‘Have a beautiful mind, not a crude, vulgar, stupid mind, a middle-class mind, a bourgeois mind, but have a beautiful mind, a mind that thinks very clearly, a mind that is capable of expressing, of exploring, of investigating. You see, I cover all that. And to see the beauty means you must feel, feel the people around you, see, feel the trees, be watchful of what you think because you may hurt others by your word, by your gesture. You understand all this?

So in teaching, yes, in teaching English literature, we are learning together the beauty of language, beauty, beauty of a good mind, the beauty of a good heart that is flowering, that is kindly, generous, affectionate, not selfish. That’s your job, isn’t it? Am I stealing your thunder? In the same way mathematics, geography, everything, you know — I’d like to be a teacher some time, but I won’t.

So that’s what Brockwood stands for. You can only learn in freedom, and learning implies not only learning about books, what is in books, but also learning what it means to be related, what is relationship, and its responsibility, because we’re living together in a small community, and we’re responsible for the lawns, for the house, for the gardens, for, you know — we’re responsible. And also we are responsible for our relationships.

Well, I’ve talked for an hour and five minutes. Now you begin, some of you. Qu’est ce que vous pensez de tout ça? Because you see the world is in a terrible condition — murders, letter-bombs, what is happening in North Ireland, what is happening in the Arab world, in Vietnam, the political dirt that is going on in America and in the rest of the world. It’s a terrible world, a mad world. And we’ve got to face it. So unless you have a total education, a good mind — I don’t mean by a ‘good mind’, a very learned mind — a mind that is capable of investigation, looking at itself, whether it is thinking clearly, whether it says one thing and does another, a total, sane mind — it’s only such a mind can meet this ugly world, and that is total education. I have talked enough.

Q: Here we are going to receive our good education. And after we have the education, how we — first we live in a mad world.

Q: We live in a mad world, he says.

K: In a mad world. Yes.

Q: So we want to help this world. First we receive good education. I am asking how we transmit, I mean talking to the people.

K: Yes. First get a good education, and then you will answer it. You understand what I am saying?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Before you come to grips or tackle or get into contact with the mad world, first be completely sane yourself, be completely educated yourself, then you will know what to do when you meet the mad world. But don’t ask the question, what shall I do when I will meet the world. You understand what I’m saying? First be yourself completely educated and sane. Then you will know what to do when you meet the mad dog.

Q: But how do you know when you’re completely educated and sane?

K: That’s what we are going to learn.

Q: How can you see for yourself?

K: That’s where intelligence and co-operation and study and investigation come in. I may be mad, like the world — I want to find out. Right? So I begin to investigate what is madness. Madness is this nationalism, it’s madness — the Jews against the Arabs, you know all that — it’s madness. It’s madness to worship an ideology, the Communists, you follow? So I begin to see what is sanity. Am I like that, have I ideologies? If I have, I’m insane.

Q: But is it as easy as that?

K: Of course, if you want to find out what sanity is. If you say, I’m really rather tired today, I’m bored with all this stuff, and I’ll later on pick it up, then it’s too late. But if I say ‘I want to find out whether I’m sane, balanced, completely educated.’ That’s my job, I want to find out. I’ll find out in my relationship with another.

Q: But suppose you recognise some problem in a relationship, whether they be subtle or in your opinions or what you want, then how do you see that so clearly that…

K: All right, sir. You and I are living together here. You see in me pride, conceit, which prevents me having any relationship with you. Right? Because I’m, you know. Now, how are you going to help me to understand my pride, which prevents our relationship, and see my responsibility to you, that if I have pride I am not related to you. Now, how are we going to do it together?

Q: I hope I’d be able to…

K: Not ‘hope’. Here we are.

Q: I’d want to express what…

K: That means, will I listen to you?

Q: I would find out.

K: Will I listen to you?

Q: I’d try to say it so that you do.

K: That means what?

Q: Communicating.

K: When, when would you tell me, when would I listen to you? Please, sir, you want to tell me something. And I don’t want to listen to you. Right?

Q: So there must be an atmosphere.

K: Therefore what is the atmosphere?

Q: It’s clear that there is the affection, the good intention.

K: All that. All that’s involved, and can you talk to me? Because I don’t want, my pride doesn’t want to be touched by you. You follow? I say yes, yes, I know everything. You’re perfectly right but you’re wrong, but I know everything. I know all about you, and I put a barrage, a façade or a barrier, and you can’t — what will you do? That’s why, sir, responsibility is tremendously important, on my part and on your part. You follow? You may feel terribly responsible, I also must feel responsible. And how do I feel responsible, living in a community of this kind, and not having this barrier of pride? So you catch me when I’m unaware. (laughs) You follow what I mean? When I have been doing dishes, you say come off it. You understand? You know.

You haven’t talked at all. You know, it’s awfully good to express yourself, put into words what you feel. You know, when I was fourteen, many, many years ago, I was quite young, and there were a group of people, about ten, to whom I was teaching (laughs) — you understand? — to whom, I was telling them how to behave. (laughter) And I have been doing that since. So you must express yourself, either openly, in conversation like this, or write it down, put it down, get verbally alive. Because that’s part of relationship, part of responsibility, when we are talking together.

I think that’s enough for today, don’t you? An hour and a quarter.