Public Talk 4, Mexico City, 3 November 1935

Fourth Talk in Mexico City

November 3, 1935.

(A member of the audience arose and asked the whole audience to stand to express the desire that Krishnamurti would remain for a longer time in Mexico. Everyone rose to their feet, and when they had settled down, Krishnamurti began his talk).

Friends,

It is most kind of you to ask me to stay a long time, but unfortunately it is impossible, because the arrangements have already been made. This stay has been short, but when I come again I hope to stay longer, and we shall have more talks and more intensive work. But I nevertheless appreciate your interest and kindness.

Many people have written asking fantastic questions which they said they had gathered from papers; and naturally you know what papers are. I need not contradict what they have already said; but if you are interested, you might have gathered what I have to say during these talks, and also you might, if you are interested further, read some of the things I have said in the books. Those books contain what I think and how I live, and it is much more authentic, it would be truer to discover what I think and how I live to read those books than reading papers and judging.

Many questions have been sent in, and unfortunately I cannot answer all of them. But we have chosen some that will be representative, and I am going to answer some of them this morning. To understand these answers which I am going to give, please do not look for a definite solution; because when we seek a definite solution, we are merely looking for a system, and we think our life and our problems will be solved by merely following a particular mode of conduct or a system. Whereas, what will solve truly, wholly, completely our innumerable problems is that we should have the capacity to think anew, and to think anew you must not accept remedies, systems, comforts. So I am going to answer these questions as a whole, as a human problem, not take each problem by itself and try to solve it.

As this is my last talk here, I will first answer questions, and then give a brief talk.

QUESTION: How can we educate a child to best fit him to attain the fulfilment of which you speak?

KRISHNAMURTI: Either you educate a child because you want him to fit into a particular system, or you want him to live intelligently. Now if you want to make him fit into a system, you must enquire if that system is true. Now what is happening? Children, boys and girls are being trained to conform to a particular form of thought and conduct. That system of morality and of living is, if you truly think of it, not prejudiced, is essentially based on acquisitiveness, egotistic morality, a morality of egotism and fear. Now, do you as grown up people want your children to fit into a particular system? If you do not, you must have a complete alteration of your thought and emotion. Then you must look at the problem quite differently. That is, you must consider whether man, child, is merely to be shaped, controlled, dominated by environment; if he is to be ever conditioned, limited, controlled by fear; or by encouraging intelligence, not fear, not compulsion or authority, he breaks through this environmental limitation, and awakens that intelligence which is true fulfilment. That demands an intense, steady thought and action on your part, because our minds are so encrusted, so dominated by authority, that we think that children must be imposed upon, must be shaped to fit into a particular system. When you desire a person to fit into a particular mode of conduct or of a system, it essentially indicates fear, and therefore our whole educational system is one based on fear, and not the encouragement of individual fulfilment. Please understand what I mean by individual fulfilment. I do not mean egotistic expression in any form; and the moment you have egotistic expression, it is the indication of fear, and therefore there cannot be fulfilment. What is true fulfilment is, to free the mind and heart from those values, and discern without any sense of self-defence, and discover for yourself all the limitations imposed on the mind through society and religion.

So if you would really help the child to fulfil, you must become conscious of the responsibility, fulfilment of the individual in society. Naturally I cannot go into details and the many subtle ideas that are contained in what I am answering; but as long as you are merely forcing the mind and heart to conform to a particular pattern, which indicates fundamentally egotistic fear and self-defence, it indicates that there is fear; and where there is fear there cannot be fulfilment, and therefore man becomes merely an imitative machine, functioning automatically in society. So you who are grown up, you have to awaken to the limitations, and in that awakening you will create the true revolution, not the antithesis of authority.

QUESTION: Is it your intention to create a world revolution against the existing order?

KRISHNAMURTI: I want to explain something which I hope you will follow carefully.

Where there is authority, there cannot be intelligence. Where there is imposition, there must be revolt. So revolt or revolution is merely the result of opposition, authority. (Applause). Sirs, please listen, because it is very difficult to deal with this question concentratedly if you clap.

Where there is compulsion in any form, there must be subsequent revolt or revolution. Then after the revolution has taken place, there is again established authority. There again takes place the crystallization of thought, the establishment of a system, modes of conduct, and a new set of ideas. So what happens is, from authority to revolution, and from revolution to authority the mind goes; which does not really, profoundly solve, alter human nature. What will alter it is the questioning of authority itself, not creating a new set of revolutions. We seek authority as a means of comfort, security, and build around that desire a system of society which must oppress others, exploit others, and naturally there is always a reaction against that oppression, which we call revolution. If you who are creating the series of authorities through seeking security and defence, if you did not seek, but were really questioning the whole principle of compulsion, then you would be not living as an entity that is attached to an idea, to a house, to a family, to society, security, but there would be taking place in you this constant movement, this constant change; and that continual becoming, which is not growing, that continual becoming is life, is eternity.

So mere revolution, without fundamentally enquiring into the principle of compulsion and authority, merely creates another prison in which your mind and heart will be caught. So you have to approach this question of authority and revolution from the point of view of what each individual is seeking. After all, a revolution is created by a group, and that group is created by individual thought and action. And if the individual is only transferring his security to another plane, we shall merely arrive at another set of authorities, compulsions. So what truly matters is this constant awakening to, not security, but to free the mind from its own desire to be secure, to be certain. And when the mind is truly free from all sense of security, when the mind is really insecure, then there is not revolution as opposed to authority, but there is a continual movement, as that of a river, and therefore there is the ecstasy of living, which cannot be created through revolution, a revolution as a reaction against authority.

QUESTION: What is the significance of death?

KRISHNAMURTI: We will find out what is the significance of death by carefully examining what happens when there is a death. There is an intense shock which we call suffering. You have lost someone whom you love greatly, one on whom you have relied, whom you have possessed; and when that person dies there is the shock which you call pain. Now when there is pain, we seek a remedy, the remedy which the church offers, that there is a final unity of all human beings, and all the theories around it. That is one form of remedy. Then there is the spiritualistic form of drug. Then there is the remedy of reincarnation. So when there, is pain from death, you are seeking a remedy, how to contact the person who has died, and you think that will quieten down your suffering. That is, you suffer and you seek the remedy through any means—religion, mediums, ideas, reincarnation, any theory that will pacify you. It is a subtle form of trying to lose yourself and forget yourself. So you are concerned, not with the dead, but with your own suffering. You try to cover it up by calling it love and so on, but fundamentally there is a fear of suffering.

Now if you do not seek any remedy at all, which does not mean that you must wallow in suffering, then that suffering will awaken your true intelligence. I am not theorizing, but I am telling you what really does take place; because it is the fate of every human being to be connected with death. There is an emptiness, there is a void, there is a loneliness, which, by becoming conscious of it, creates pain; and to get rid of that pain, we seek remedies. So we become merely slaves to ideas, theories and drugs. Then we begin to enquire if reincarnation is a fact or not, whether the spirits exist and whether we can truly communicate with them. All this indicates an utter poverty of being. To cover up that poverty, that emptiness, we seek guides, and hope all the time to cover that well of emptiness. But you can never cover it. So what matters is that you shall not escape through any remedy, and therefore face entirely, with your whole being, that emptiness. Now as you have not faced it in that manner, you cannot say that there will be negation, further emptiness. You will find out what takes place only after experimenting. So become conscious of the emptiness, and you will see that your mind is always trying subtly to cover it up, to leave it, to avoid it, and so in covering we think we have solved the problem of death. Suffering is merely the indication of a stagnant mind, and instead of realizing that your mind is asleep and needs awakening, you merely seek another drug to make it go to sleep again. So our process of life is a continual awakening and being put to sleep again. So what we have to do when there is suffering is not to be put to sleep by a remedy. Then you will find out that life and death are not such cataclysmic incidents, and in that really awakened intelligence you will find out the beauty of life which is every becoming, which is real, which is true, in which there is no fear of death, of annihilation.

QUESTION: It is clear that organized religion cannot make man perfect, but does it not bring him nearer to God through encouraging a life of virtue and unselfishness?

KRISHNAMURTI: Let us be very clear what we mean by religion. For me, religion has nothing to do with the sayings of the great teachers. On one side the teaching says do not kill, love your neighbour, and on the other, religions encourage, support the slaughter of humanity. (Applause). By encouraging nationalism, supporting a special class, with all its subtle vested interests. So religion, as organized belief, religion as it is throughout the world, is merely a vested interest exploiting man, dividing and separating man, which cannot by any means lead man to reality. That is what I mean by religion.

Now that organized belief which we call religion, we have created it, it hasn’t miraculously come into being. We have created it through our desire for security and self-defensive measures. As we have created that environment, that religious environment, if we merely seek God as another security, we shall create another religion. Where there is a search for security, self-protection, subtly, here or in the hereafter, there can never be the realization of truth. When you think that you must be unselfish in order to realize God, you are really establishing, creating another form of egotism. That is, you say to yourself, “I shall love my neighbour in order to find God.” You are not loving at all in that case; you are only looking for a reward, a safety, and our mind is essentially based on this idea of reward, and our whole social morality is based on that too. You are not interested, action is not vital to you, but what will action bring. So you develop virtue as a means of self-protection. You say to yourself, “I must be unselfish, I must love my neighbour as a means of protection,” because you want to be ultimately safe, what you call immortality. That is not immortality, that is not the realization of truth or God. You will know what it is only when the mind and heart are completely naked, completely stripped and vulnerable; and as most people do not desire that their mind and heart shall be vulnerable, they develop protective walls, which they call, virtue, conduct, behaviour.

Please don’t misunderstand me. When a man is really naked, vulnerable, then he is the very essence of truth. Therefore there is not the necessity to protect himself against something.

QUESTION! Is God just and good? If so, why does he permit evil in the world?

KRISHNAMURTI: Let us leave God out of this question, because you don’t know, really, whether God is good or bad. You have been told God is love, God is just, God is good. And if you really, profoundly believed in it, your whole life would be different. As it is not, you don’t believe in God. Therefore let us leave God out of the question.

You want to know how the evils, all the miserable conditions of exploitation exist in the world. We have created them. Each individual through his intense desire to be secure, to be safe, to be certain, has created an environment, a society, a religion, in whose shelter the individual takes comfort. So you as individuals have created this, and you as individuals will have to awaken to what you have created and destroy all the things that are false; then you will know what is true, what is God, what is really love. That is, in other words, instead of escaping from the objective world into the subjective, which you call God, there must be harmony between the subjective and the objective. Then you will know the real harmony, the real beauty of living. Then you will know whether there is God, whether there is reality, whether there is immortality. Begin to discover this harmony, not establishing it, but discover how disharmony is created. By discovering how this disharmony is created, you will naturally come to that harmony which is enduring, which is living.

QUESTION: Does consciousness evolve?

KRISHNAMURTI: In the minds of most people, there is a universal consciousness, or cosmic or whatever they like to call it, and there is a particular individual consciousness. Now we will not discuss whether there is a universal consciousness or not, because the moment we realize that there is a universal consciousness, we would not be acting particularly, individualistically. So what we know is only individual, limited consciousness, and occasionally a waft, a perfume of the real consciousness in which there is no individuality. So we will not concern ourselves with that perfume. You are asking me if individual consciousness is progressive, evolving.

Now what do you mean by individual consciousness? You may put it in different words, by different terminology, but don’t be muddled or confused by my words. You mean by individual consciousness, the result, the conflict between your desires and environment. That is, the reaction between yourself and society. That is part of its composition: conflict, then the various impositions on the mind, either the tradition of the past or of the present, and the various individualistic reactions which we call memories. So individual consciousness consists in all these subtle forms of memories, self-defences. You as individuals have a certain background, and with that background you approach experience or life;

and you learn from that experience further means of self-protection. When you say you are learning through experience, if you really observe you will see that you are learning to be more careful, cunning, self-protective. So each experience is adding further defences against life. You ask me if that limited consciousness of self-protection will ever evolve to perfection. How can it? Selfishness can’t become perfect; however much it may evolve, it remains a frustration, egotism. So a consciousness based on self-protective memories must lead to illusion, not to real becoming. So what you call consciousness has not a future in the sense of becoming; and what is growing is not eternal.

QUESTION: You speak of a truth which is at present beyond the reach of our minds and hearts. Since we know of its existence only through you, how can we strive for it unless we accept it on your authority?

KRISHNAMURTI: As I explained, we accept authority when we seek safety, security, comfort, shelter. If you make of truth or God or reality as a means of security against the uncertainty of living, if you make of truth or of God as a means of security against the confusion of life, then you will find authorities that will lead you to your comfort. But I do not want to lead you to God, because what you fundamentally want is comfort. So I am not offering a system, a mode of conduct or a belief to make you safe. Where there is search for safety there is egotism, whether it is the highest form of egotism, which is your search for God. If you want comfort and safety, you will make of anyone, including me, into your authority. But that will not really awaken you to reality. But I say, instead of escaping to God, to safety, instead of realizing that man is essentially God, living, functioning here, instead of realizing that, don’t try to escape to some false, romantic ideal. So what matters is to find out how this confusion has been created, here in this world, and try and deliberately, on your individual part, shatter all the false illusions under which you take shelter. You are creating authority as a means of comfort, safety. If I offered you immortality, I would become your authority, like so many religions, sects, teachers have become, who exploit and really destroy your minds and hearts.

Now instead of seeking authority which is born out of fear, discover how your mind has been made stupid by discovering how your mind has been crippled, made stupid, by your own desire, your own longing to be protected. That is, instead of thinking that you must follow authority in order to become more limited……Sorry, I must explain it more delicately.

Now we say we realize that we are limited. Realizing its frustration, its emptiness of suffering, and so on, we say, “I must follow somebody in order to become more intelligent, more divine.” What you are merely doing is, by following and worshipping another, you are not realizing your own creations of limitations. That is, if we realize that we were really stupid, instead of trying to become intelligent by following authority, we will then discover what creates stupidity, what are the limitations that force the mind into a certain groove. Instead of realizing what is the cause of frustration, limitation, we seek people, authorities to lead us away from that stupidity. Whereas, instead of being led away from it, let us examine what really creates limitation. Then you will discover that limitations are created by your own action, action based on the search for a reward, a recompense, action based on following somebody through fear, action based on the idea that immortality lies in the hereafter.

So if you really examine your action, you will see that there is always a subtle, egotistic motive. That action is creating, increasing always limitations, frustrations, incompleteness. Instead of wanting to know how not to be incomplete, how to be complete, find out what creates incompleteness. You will find incompleteness, frustration is born by submitting yourself to those moralities and values based fundamentally on egotism. As long as you are merely functioning, living in a set of false values, there must be incompleteness and suffering. When the mind and heart have pierced through these walls of false values, then you will find out that liberation, that truth, that reality which is eternity.