K School – Adults Talk 2, Rishi Valley, 31 January 1961

Talk No. II (to teachers) 31-1-1961

We were talking, I think, of establishing a right communication between ourselves and the student, and in that state of communion I think we can bring about a different atmosphere or climate in which the student is beginning to learn. I do not know if you have not noticed something rather odd in the systems. As frivolity is contagious so is seriousness, seriousness not with a heavy face or a heavy heart but that seriousness which comes into being when we are in a state of relationship, communion. And in that state it is not possible to learn. In that state it is not possible for the student to go along with the teacher along different paths of intellectual and emotional development and I wish we would commune with each other this morning. It would be fun if we can do it as you would with a student.

I think learning can only exist in that state of communion between the teacher and the student, as between you and me — not that I am your teacher. You know what the word “communion” means — to communicate, to be in touch, to transmit a certain feeling, to feel together, and not only at the verbal level but also at an intellectual level and also much more deeply, more fundamentally, more subtly. I think the word communion means all that — at least I translate as that — I do not know what the dictionary says. The word “communion” means the whole climate in which we establish it, at all levels, and in that state, in that climate, in that atmosphere, in that sense of togetherness, is it not possible for both the teacher and the student to learn? And I think that is the only state to learn, not you sitting, on a pedestal and pouring a lot of information down the throat of the student or I sitting on a platform and speaking out a lot of theories which have no meaning at all. If we could establish that communion, then we can learn a good deal together, not only with the speaker but with trees, with nature, with students, with the world, with the early morning when you get up that sense of communion in which we learn.

You remember what we were talking about the other day. I wonder if you have been able to establish this communion, this sense of togetherness with the student. This morning could we discuss something which I feel everybody should consider, not only the teacher — not the professional teacher but the human being who has a profession — and the student, because that has a great deal of significance in life. The whole civilisation, not only in India but in the rest of the world, is geared to competition, to success, to achievement. The ambitious man seems to be the respected entity — I think we are familiar with it — I mean the ambitious man, the aggressive man who wants to succeed, intrigues, pulls wires and gets off by some means or other to the top of the heap. There is everlasting competition not only in the class of a school but also in daily life — the attitude of a clerk who feels he must become the manager and the manager the director and the director to Board President, and so on. This is the established pattern of existence in modern civilisation. You see everywhere the man who is mad after success — a Khrushchev — kill, murder — and yet they are respected, politically at least, and the same attitude exists in the class. You tell the boy he is not so good, not so intelligent, that he is rather dull compared to another boy. You coax him, put theories, goad him, encourage him to compete, to succeed, to arrive at a certain examination, at a certain intellectual level. This is the pattern: “I want to be the Principal, I want to be the Headmaster” — how we are all worshipping labels! I do not know how you treat a cook, a cook’s wife or her husband. So we have this attitude, inborn, which is essentially competitive, aggressive existence. This is ordinary life, is it not, not only economic, social life but also religious life? I want to be nearest to the Guru, Sankara Mutts etc. There is this everlasting struggle to climb, to compete, to compare at all the levels of our being, competition, comparison, sense of superior and inferior — that is our background. Is this right or is it to be accepted as inevitable and carried on in that line? And will this divergence of existence bring about real learning and is that natural life, natural not in the primitive sense of that word but in cultured life? Would you bring up your child that way? Obviously, you would, but is that the way to live, is that the way to think and do you think that is the right way of existence? I know it is the accepted pattern but is that the true way? First of all, what does this competition, this comparison all the time do to the mind? Do you think you learn through competition? Let us go slowly at this, let us examine it. We know that it is the established pattern at all the levels of our being, of all stages of our existence, to compete, to compare, to have goals, to achieve and all the rest of it. A man with a Ph.D. is considered as extraordinary and a B.A. is out. This is the extraordinary feeling of the one who is superior and the one who is inferior and the inferior everlastingly struggling to become the superior, not only in relationship to one people but in a class, is the whole structure of modern existence.

Now what is right or wrong? In examining this we come to see if it is right right comes and wrong goes. Then we shall be able to find out a way how to help the student to learn. We are concerned with learning. As a teacher you are concerned with learning not only for yourself but also to help the student to learn. So, bearing that in mind, we would consider this point. What do you think about the competition? What do you think of this comparison? You see these two pictures on the wall (pointing to two landscapes on the wall). One is Jemini Roy and the other is Nandalal Bose. Our attitude is this: if the name of the painter is already well known, it does not matter what he paints — it is excellent — but the man whose name we do not know — his picture is inferior. This happens all the time. Is it right? Will that bring comprehension, will that help him to learn? Not that I must not have the capacity to differentiate, but will that help the mind to understand, to learn? How will you proceed to help them if you and they have this attitude of competition, of comparison? Is that the state of mind in which one learns?

Let us make this very simple. What does this competition do to the mind? Will that be helpful? If my mind is always comparing, what happens to the mind that is comparing, achieving success, worshipping success?

A teacher: It is tiring itself.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: You are still watching the effects, the results, but you are not watching the mind itself, the nature of the mind itself which is doing this, not the mind which is in movement, which is in a state of competition. These are the results. Please look at the mind itself which is doing these things.

Dr. Mrs. Krishnaswamy: If the mind is going to measure success by achievement and when it does not achieve it then there is frustration.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: But still you are dealing with results. I want to tackle the mind. Perhaps analogies are tiring. The seed of an oak can never become the pine tree. You say: “I do not know what seed I am but I am becoming a pine, if not that the ash, if not that the oak. We do not know the seed, or the origin, or the state of the mind that is itself, rather than what it should be. What should be, what is the end, is the reaction, but I do not know what the action is without the reaction, and the action of a pure seed is the true tree.

Qn: You feel that a mind which achieves results in this manner, and taking one thing for another, does not recognise and does not know the quality of its own seed and because it does not know what it does it feels frustration.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: Let us experience the thing rather than verbalise it. “I do not know why my son should become a minister or a clergyman, you all tell me he must. My son happens to be very bright and is being educated abroad” — the vanity, the vibrating delight in it all! Have you noticed it? It is all right, it may have a certain value socially, but I want to find out if a mind that is doing this all the time, such a mind is, as you pointed out, not only restless but it has no depth in itself. A tree is beautiful because it is itself, it is not something else.

We compete, worship success, because we feel that if we did not compete, we would stagnate. If I did not struggle and arrive, I would be like the villagers. That is merely a speculative response, it is not an actual fact. You do not know what would happen, so I am going to compete. I shall see what happens, then I shall be myself whatever it is. Then I begin to learn. Water is water in all circumstances whether it is in the river or in a single drink. In that state in which the mind is not comparing at all any more, when it has understood the absurdity of comparing, it has established a foundation from which it can start learning in the true sense of the word. Now we have no foundation from which to learn. What we are doing is merely adding, the additive process is going on which we call learning: it is not learning. If there is such a foundation which is not wandering, going, coming, longing, and all the rest of it, it is a solid foundation and on that you can build. The building is the structure of learning and from that learning, action and therefore never conformity, and therefore never sense of fear, never sense of frustration. Can I help the student to learn in that manner — not just add — because the Encyclopaedia has all the information. The Electronic brain has incalculable capacity. You know what electronic brains are but they are trying to investigate now whether it can be intelligently constructed in itself — not by others. That is the next step. So the machine can only add to itself, and that is not learning, and if I say I want learning, I want the student to learn, I must differentiate totally between the process of addition and learning. Then, you are creating a real human being, not a machine. If you do not see that, how are you going to help the student? “We must live in a state of competition, we must be ambitious, we shall worship success” — all these horrors you wipe away with one sweep — which means that the so-called structure of one’s society is gone.

I do not know how you regard this. Is this inevitable competition? Look at what it does to us! “I want to be an engineer, I am a careerist, my father tells me, society tells me”, and I push and push. Somebody cleverer than me gets the job. I feel miserable, I feel frustrated, then I curse my wife and my relations and everything and turn to something else, or just become door mat to the Chief Engineer. So our life is dogged by this extreme fear, frustration, misery, all our lives. All this is what society wants. As long as the son becomes the Chief Engineer the father does not care two hoots what happens to him as a human being, all that he is concerned with is that he has a fat salary. And, the generation that is coming just into your hands, you want them to continue in the same way? It does not matter what happens to them, you marry them to a wife who is most hideous, you do not think of all the horrors of that as long as they are safe. If you feel that it is a real horror, that this society which we have grown up is a rotten thing, how will you help those students? It means, really, growing a new generation entirely different from those horrors — big man, small man, success, and all that monstrosity.

What are the steps you will take, day after day, not just once a week but all the time? Look sir, what did I say? You know of this competition and you know what it means in verbal and in daily life, the grind, the fear, the anxiety. If you are caught in these, what happens to you? You are perpetually miserable, perpetually afraid. Do you want your son to grow up like that? Won’t you say: “I am going to stop it” — you would, if you feel it. What would you to [do] to prevent the monstrous way which society is following? There is this poor child being absorbed into this structure where he is going to compete. What will you do to prevent him from being swallowed up in this society? I am not exaggerating the picture, it is a fact. They may say that it is inevitable. Then you may just drown the child — in this society he is actually drowned. What will you do, step by step, to help him?

A voice: He should not be brought up with luxuries.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: What is wrong with luxuries? He may wear clean clothes, he may sit in a chair, have good food. To me it is luxury, to you it is not. What has luxury to do with this? You are laying down the law, the ideal “No luxury.” Therefore I am going to compete, otherwise all my life I would have luxuries. That is what all these sanyasins and saints are doing. The poor citizen, the poor man waits on them, following the saints and going around them, trying to be something in which their heart is not. Talk to the child not once a week, talk to him about it all the time, every minute of the day, because he is being conditioned to compete. The father at home, the mother at home, have dinned into him this horror. How will you help him not to be caught in this vicious circle?

Dr. Mrs. Krishnaswami: By making him see that he should not be afraid and that as an individual he is unique and has a contribution to make.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: If an individual realises he is unique, so unique that there is no other like him? Is be unique, factually? He comes with all the prejudice of his parents, all the tastes of hot food developed in him. He is already worshipping the law of the high. He says: “Oh, this teacher is not so good, it is the Principal that I must get at.” He is being told at home: “You are not so clever as your elder brother.” Where is the uniqueness in that poor child? Only if you strip him of all this, but can you strip him of all this? Is it not the function of the teacher to strip him naked? It is your responsibility, that is, you see it, feel it. You say that it is true, you feel tremendously that you will transmit it. But the boy will not, because he may not feel it so urgent. How will you commune with the child together so that he learns? How will you teach him or help him to learn without the spirit of competition?

A teacher: I am not able to feel for the child unless the feeling is inside me, and when it is not there I feel I have already destroyed that child.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: I will tell you. Every case has its own lesson. You do not feel it because you are competing. Why are you competing? No money, position, prestige? If you cannot get it and if anybody is put over you and he comes with a Ph.D. and all that, you feel most fearfully frustrated, and do you want your child to go through this?

Above teacher: I notice there is some sort of lukewarmness in me in this matter.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: As long as you do not feel strongly about this, what will you do? You cannot wait till you completely understand, say for 2 years, so what will you do? That is the real revolution, sir, that is the real revolution! Want of examination will to some extent help in this. You say: Do not give the student marks but if a record is kept for yourself how he is behaving, how he is learning and the stage of his knowledge and so on, and do not goad him and help him to compete.

G. Narayan: I shall mention one thing that is possible in the relationship I establish with the child. If I feel strongly for something that the student does I want to use force. Under those circumstances I would feel like wanting to beat the child but I always avoid it so as to prevent the factor of fear in your relationship.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: How will you actually deal with the child with this understanding? You have to do something, but you don’t tell the child because he is brought up in this competition, nor tell the parents either because they love the child as all the parents do.

Mr. Prasad: There is frequent admonition when a particular boy does a thing wrong and another does it right.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: Well, look at it, don’t do it from now. When you say “You are not as good as that boy”, you are destroying this boy. When you tell B he is not as good as A then you are destroying B. You don’t say you are a murderer!

Sirs, please note the problem:

No comparison in the class, no marks, no gradations, etc., etc., and the teacher who teaches loves his subject.

First of all, see the difficulty of the problem. First, you yourself are in a state of competition and the child is in a state of competition and you want to help him. This requires deep understanding. How do we, ten of us, try this thing together? We all agree over the simple fact that marks encourage competition. We shall try to avoid it. Then how will you proceed? Narayan suggests fear. That is too absurd. I lose my temper and bang the child because I am impatient. That, obviously, one must avoid, that is merely cruelty. We must act together in this, not just you acting alone, because we are all responsible.

Let me make a resume of what we have discussed: Real learning comes about when the competitive spirit has ceased. The competitive spirit is merely an additive process which is not learning at all, so we want the child to learn and not merely add to himself like a machine. To help the child to learn basically and fundamentally he must cease to compete, with all the implications. Now, one of the ways to do this is, we must all agree and see the truth of it: no marks, no hitting the boy.

How will you help the child not to be competitive?

G. Narayan: When you start thinking about a thing like this many things come into your mind. As I teach mathematics I think of the ways I can present the subject matter so that the ways I present may be interesting and not dull, etc. So when I think of communicating, say a thing or an idea to the child first I see in that idea something lively to him. So many things operate in relationship when a thing like this is presented, and how do you communicate it? It is a very vast thing, so we can only say it in parts, many, many things.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: You are not meeting the point; I must make the point clear. When I say: “What will you do?”, I mean not only actually, in terms of action, but also in terms of feeling, feeling, action. They are not two different things, the feeling, the action. I see — and you see — very clearly that competitiveness is destructive not only in the class-room but right through life. Here is a young child, I want to help him to understand. How am I to proceed? I can talk to him and say: “Look, what is happening in life, misery, conflict!” Talk to him, talk to him and point it out, not to create condemnation, not to create reaction. Look at the picture. As you see London, Bombay, as in the map, so you see it very clearly. I help the student to see very clearly, that is my first job. I convey to him the urgency of my feeling — I am not trying to convince him, influence him, I do not talk to him in terms of condemnation, in terms of agreement, not influence, persuade. I say: “These are the facts.” I establish that. I am dealing entirely factually, scientifically — not romantically, sentimentally, emotionally. I have established between him and me right relationship. We are dealing with facts. So I am not going to give you marks and I am going to help you to study for itself, not in order to compete. So I have established a relationship and both of us mutually understand the facts, the corruptive facts of competition. Then you and

I sit down and say “What are we going to do actually, in action?”

Translation of the feeling (of communion) depends very largely, entirely, on the intensity of this feeling. Now, you have established the feeling, the truth, the fact, that competition is deadly, but you have not established this fact to the poor kids. Is not that the first thing to do.

G. Narayan: It is not possible to do that with the younger children.

J. KRISHNAMURTI: You may. Explain. Take hours. Explain to them with the older students and show it to them by examples. Talk of the murderers in the world from the top politician down to the last. Give them the feeling of the appalling monstrosity of it. That is the first thing to do.