Public Discussion 7, Bombay, 5 March 1961

DISCUSSION No. 7

5-3-61

8 a.m. to 9.15 a.m.

I think it would be a great mistake if we treat these discussions as a theoretical affair, a problematic issue, approximating our lives to ideas into ideals. That surely is not what we are doing. We are moving very carefully and advisedly from fact to fact which is after all the approach of a scientist. He may have various theories, but he pushes those aside when he is confronted with facts. So religious mind as we have been discussing, is concerned with the fact and moving from the fact; the scientist is concerned with the observation of outward things, the things that are about matter, whether it is near or far. To him there is only matter and the observation of that matter the outward movement. The religious mind, to the religious mind, I feel, the outward movement is a unitary process with the inward movement. The two are not separate. Religious man moves from the outward to the inward like a tide, this constant movement from the outer to the inner, and to the inner from the outer. So that there is a perfect balance and a sense of integration, not with the outer and inner, but as a movement, as a unitary movement and if one observes very carefully one sees what an extraordinary thing anonymity is, the anonymous approach after all is required to understand a fact, the reality of what is false or what is truth; there must be the approach of the anonymous, not the approach of tradition, of hope, of despair of an idea, which are all identified with something or other, and therefore they can never be anonymous. A monk who withdraws in a monastery and takes a name he is not anonymous, or the Sannyasi, because they are still identified with their conditioning. It is really the awareness of this extraordinary movement of the outer and the inner as a unitary process and the understanding of this whole thing must be anonymous. Therefore it is very important to understand all conditioning and to be aware of that conditioning, and to shatter through that.

We have been discussing, and I hope we are aware of the significance of this when we use the word ‘discussion’ that you are not merely listening to me, to the speaker, but you are also at the same time listening to your own mind, the mind is listening to itself, because what is being said is merely indication, but what is more important is that through this indication one begins to listen, the mind begins to listen to itself, and is aware of itself, aware of movement of thought. Then I think these discussions would be of significance and worth-whileness; but if you merely treat it as theory, something to be thought over and after thinking over, come to a conclusion and then approximate your daily life with that conclusion, seems to be utterly futile; but what would be of great significance and importance is to be aware of this whole movement of thought and there is an identification with thought immediately when there is condemnatory process or justification, and to see the significance of all this as we are going along, as we discuss, because we have been taking about the religious mind and the scientific mind; there are really no other minds. Every other mind is a mischievous mind, whether it is most learned person or most erudite, or the sannyasi who has given up this and given up that; of course, the political mind is the most destructive mind; but as there are only two real spirits in the world: the real scientific mind which observes, which analyses, which dissects, which goes into the outward movement of life without any compromise,- he may compromise outside the laboratory where he is still a conditioned human being, but [not] where that spirit of enquiry and research as a ruthless pursuit of fact — that is the only spirit in the scientific field and our minds must be that obviously to understand and it must also have this comprehension of the outer as well as the inner, and as these are the only two actual facts — if one begins to understand these two as a unitary process and it is only the religious mind that can comprehend the unitary process. Then whatever action that springs from that, from the religious mind is the action that will not bring about misery, confusion. That is what we have been discussing.

Also we have been discussing somewhat the question of fear, and perhaps it might be worthwhile this morning to consider Suffering and Compassion. I have been told by physicists that they put light, strong light on the atom and in that light awakens the movement in the atom and in that movement,- with the mind that is looking at the movement — there is an indeterminism, that is what the scientists say. Now there is I feel the light of silence with which to approach all the problems — the light of silence which can be turned on, if one can use that phrase, and that light of silence brings into being, into precision, clarity, preciseness to actual movement of every thought. It is only in that light of silence you can comprehend, there is comprehension. I think we have discussed enough of that, to see what are the implications involved in it. Then with that understanding let us consider what is suffering. We have thought of Fear, we have gone into it somewhat. Now let us go into the question of Suffering, because I feel that Fear, Suffering are very close to the comprehension of what is compassion. The scientific mind is not a compassionate mind, it can’t, it does not know what it means, but the real true religious mind as we are explaining what is the religious mind, it is that religious mind that knows, lives as it is being in compassion; but to comprehend that thing one must understand what is suffering? Shall we discuss that or do you want to discuss something else? Shall we go on with that Sirs? Yes?

Audience: Yes Sir.

K: Please, I hope you are not merely listening to my words, because you know you can really get into a hypnotic state, mesmerised by words, learning phrases. I can quite imagine now you will repeat “the light of silence”, and that will keep on repeating in your mind. You have not understood what it means, but that is a new phrase, sounds nice; that would be mesmerising yourself. But perhaps if we could really approach this question of Suffering actually, not theoretically, then out of this struggle with words, with thought, with mind, the flame of compassion might come into being.

What is suffering? We are all suffering, every human being, in some kind of suffering: death of someone whom he likes, and that breeds sorrow, poverty — outward and inward sense of poverty – that too breeds an extraordinary sense of fruitlessness, and the inwardly poor human being when he is aware of it, he is caught in the world of sorrow, it is a terrible thing to realise that you have absolutely nothing inside. You may have degrees, titles, ministers, good clothes and palaces and all the rest of that; strip them off all and you will find inside an empty shadow, and ashes and strip the man of his knowledge of words of things he has accumulated and there too there is immense sorrow in him and we suffer in so many things. Sorrow of frustration, the anxiety of ambition, the solitary existence, the woman who has no child everlastingly crying and the man who has no capacity and sees capacity and cleverness, the man who has a gift and the one who is stupid wants to have that gift and many other gifts — incapacity and capacity both lead to suffering, and the suffering that knows that is not loved, that a human being is not loved and there is another whom he loves which does not return love, so there are so many varieties and complications and subtleties of suffering. We all know that. You know it very well and we carry this burden right through life, practically from the moment we are born till the moment we collapse into the grave. Watch yourself Sir, not my words — Why? Is it essential? is it a part of existence to suffer? Is it inevitable? Is it the human Law? Man has suffered from thousands upon thousands of years and still goes on — from the poorest beggar to the richest man, from the most powerful to the least — if we say that it is inevitable then there is no answer; if you accept it, then you are stopped enquiring into it. Please follow this. If you accept sorrow as inevitable you have closed the door, isn’t that so? And if you escape from it you have also closed the door. You may escape into man, woman, into the drink, amusement, into various forms of power, position, prestige and the eternal chatter of ‘nothingness’. So, if you accept sorrow as inevitable, you have closed the door to further enquiry; if you escape from it you have also closed the door because then your escapes become all-important, the objects to which you fly to, they assume colossal importance. So you have shut the door on sorrow also, and that is what most of us do, don’t we? No? Can we talk a little bit to each other openly? That is what we do. I suffer as my son dies, there is an empty void, utter misery, confusion, the sense of loss, degradation. You know all this, and I run away from it into belief of reincarnation, you know, resurrection and all the rest of it follows, which means I have escaped from the fact, and when I have escaped, obviously I can’t understand what is suffering. Now, can we stop escape of every kind and come back to suffering? You understand Sir? which means not seeking a solution for suffering. There is physical suffering, a tooth-ache, tummy-ache, operation, accidents, various forms of physical suffering, they have their own answer; the doctor says it is incurable disease with which you put up; but I am talking of physical fact, disability, a physical disease, pain or the fear of future pain which would cause suffering. I hope you are following this. Suffering is closely related to fear, and without comprehension of these two major factors in life we shall never comprehend what it is to become compassionate, to love. So a mind that is concerned with the comprehension of what is compassion, love and all the rest of it must surely understand what is fear and what is sorrow.

Take the physical fact first: I may have a disease or as one sees we will have certain forms of disease, it is apparently inevitable, or the doctors may find a new antibiotic or a new drug, which will perhaps prolong life; instead of living a hundred years you may live 120 years; once a person has been ill he is always afraid of the future, afraid of the recurring disease, recurring pain, recurring anxiety, the fact of what has been projects itself into the future: I may become ill and then it begins. Sorrow, the wheel of sorrow goes on, which is the projection of thought of what has been into the future which might be. We are aware of it, and it requires a very sharp mind not to project thought, project itself into the future, because once it has pain it may have pain again, and through that death, so fear sets in, the wheel of sorrow goes on. So the comprehension of sorrow as fear projected by the mind physically has to be understood, you cannot brush that aside and say we are only concerned with sorrow, inward, psychological — not that there is not inward and psychological suffering, but one has to understand this physical fact first; most of us have dental troubles or various forms of pain, we have got to know that; the mind has remembered the past pains and says: Look — gets frightened, anxious, and so he is afraid of a future pain, and thought has been the seed, that has caused this future pain, and the anxiety; just listen to it, that is all. You can’t do anything. Just listen to it to see this process. You understand Sir? I wonder if you have understood that when I say just listen to it, not being mesmerised by what I am saying, that is a fact, that is absolute psychological fact isn’t it? that a person who has had pain is afraid of pain recurring in future, thought has created that fear, in future you may not have pain but the mind is already preparing for it. That is psychological actual fact and you can’t do a thing about the fact, you understand? Mere observation of the fact — you can’t do anything about it, but see that is how the mind operates. The nervous system, the whole organism, defensive organism sets going, it is very anxious to do the right thing, always with the background of fear of pain, of sorrow, physical. That is obvious Sir, don’t you know this? Don’t we? Need we labour on that point any more? Right? Then what is sorrow? We have understood the physical process that engenders fear and suffering. Then what are the other kinds of sorrow? — not other kinds — what is Sorrow otherwise? Take the fact that most of us have experienced: the death of some one whom you “love”, and there is terrific sense of loss, there is a sense of anguish, a sense of complete loneliness being left, being stranded, we know that, most of us have had that experience in various degrees, greater in intensity. Now what does that mean? Why is there suffering? What do you say Sirs, don’t listen to me. Why?

Q: I feel thought of fear is there.

K: Yes Sir, there is a thought of fear. Agreed; but go into it, don’t merely explain it away. Go into it.

Q: Feeling of utter helplessness.

K: The feeling of utter helplessness; but why should that cause sorrow? Why should death cause sorrow, why should living cause sorrow you understand? Why should this thing called death be such an extraordinary factor which produces untold fear and sorrow as living also apparently causes untold suffering and sorrow. So life and death are synonyms — when there is a sorrow — do understand this Sirs, please.. It is not that you are afraid of death which causes sorrow, but you will also see you are afraid of living which causes sorrow. The ‘living’ being good, being respectable, having a job, no job, being loved and not loved — ambition with its frustrations, the incapacity and the capable mind who has his own tortures, the feeling of being frustrated, you know the life, the living: going every day to the office, the routine, the boredom, the insults, the anxiety, you follow all that? And not approximate, not reaching, not arriving, that is our living, isn’t that so: the eternal competition with somebody and with some idea, that is what we call living. That also produces an astonishing kind of this thing called sorrow as death called sorrow. What Sirs ? Pause.. Why are we so frightened of death — not what happens after we are not talking after-effects, whether there is continuity or not, whether there is soul or not, and all that- we are not discussing that. We are discussing the fact that we are all acquainted with this terrible thing called Death which causes pain, suffering, anxiety, sense of utter helplessness, the loneliness, this isolation, the feeling that you are stranded. Don’t you know all this feeling Sirs?

Q: We are in sorrow because when he was living he was filling some empty space in us and helping us to live.

K: When the person dies that person filled on empty space in us, the gentleman says, which is so, and that is why we so-called “love” the person. I love my son because he is going to immortalise me through him, I am going to carry my name through him, I am going to be, you know, perpetuate myself, he is going to support me when I am old, he will be better than me, he will go to college be clever and get better degrees, better job, become an important man and so he will be recognised as an important man and in that importance I also glory, an I so on and on. So you all know this. And therefore I say: I “love” my son, and the mother says: I love my son — this extraordinary process goes on, you understand Sir? everlastingly from known existence of man thousands and thousands of years ago till now. You understand? The religions, the great teachers have talked about it, etc., etc., and we are still caught in it.

Why? Pause..

Q: We instinctively feel to avoid pain and sorrow.

K: The gentleman says we instinctively avoid pain and sorrow. Are you? When you say you want to avoid pain and sorrow, then why do you suffer, you follow Sir? You see Sir, such a question has no meaning. If you say I instinctively avoid a snake, then that has an answer, that is a fact, it won’t poison you; but when you say you instinctively want to avoid pain and suffering you are living in suffering, you can’t avoid it. You are following all this Sirs? Why do you suffer go into it Sir, please, don’t listen, why do you suffer? that is your challenge, what is your response to that challenge Sirs? Why do you suffer?

Q: Because we are not full, because our mind is not full.

K: The gentleman says: Our mind is not full and then why your mind is not full. Alright? You see how you are answering? One gentleman says: we fill the space of our emptiness, the other gentleman says: our minds are not full; somebody else says something else, and you go on adding, you follow? It does not mean that you are finished with sorrow? I do not know? You follow Sir? You have given an explanation: your mind is empty and therefore it is filled by someone and somebody says: we are insufficient, our mind is not enriched and so on and on. At the end of it what? You follow Sir?

Q: We have not understood suffering.

A.Q.: Because I do not know myself..

K: The lady says: we have not understood suffering and you say Sir?

Q: I do not know myself.

K: And the gentleman says: I do not know myself. Now put all these various explanations together and where are you at the end of it?

Q: It continues suffering.

K: Don’t tell me Sirs & Ladies, think it out, don’t just smile at this.

Q: The utter emptiness of life.

K: Another explanation, and at the end of it you suffer, which means what? that you accept suffering as inevitable. A healthy mind does not accept suffering Sir, you are satisfied with explanations, aren’t you? Just a minute Sir… You have given an explanation, several of you and you say: well that explains why I suffer. Now after explaining do you want to go into it? Pause.. Now, how do you go into ? Let us please pay a little bit attention to it. How do you go into it so that when you leave this room you are out — finished with suffering once and for all, not go back to the eternal wheel of sorrow, you follow Sir what I mean? …How do you go into it? How do you go into it Sir? ….You are so eager to explain it. Now I am asking you. How do you go into it?

Q: Accept that as a fact that there is suffering.

K: Accept the fact that there is suffering. Do you accept that fact like that Sir? Accept?

A.Q.: Attachment is the cause of sorrow.

K: The gentleman says; attachment is the cause of sorrow, therefore, cultivate detachment and in the meantime you are agonizing…. What is the matter Sir with you? You are in a state of agony, and you accept the fact that you are suffering? Think of the mind that is giving explanations, you accept the fact; sorrow is there, if do you accept it? You don’t accept Sunshine, do you? Do please Sir… It is there, suffering is there, you don’t have to accept it, you don’t accept pain, do you? with its burning intensity? pain agonising you and you don’t say: I must accept it. It is there. You can explain, you can gradually push it away, that is what we are doing, all that I know, how to accept it, I will bear with it, but you can’t bear with an intense pain more than a few hours or so. So look at the mind that says; accept it. And the mind says sorrow is created by attachment, which means what? You will be free from sorrow if you detach. You follow Sir, you begin to cultivate detachment which all the books, the Gangsters talk about!!…

Which means what? Why are you attached first of all? as this gentleman pointed out; he wants to fill that empty space, therefore you are attached to the wife, to the child, to an idea, to power, position, to fill that emptiness; therefore you are attached. You don’t tackle the emptiness, but you run away from the emptiness. So how do you face this? How do you face this fact of suffering… Sirs, come on Sirs, please…

Q: When we are so suffering we neither accept nor reject; then there will be quietness.

A. Q.: When I question suffering I feel it is uncertainty of the next movement whether life after death…

K: Yes .Sir, Yes Sir, you are all explaining. Look Sir. I want to leave this room without suffering anymore… not go on tortured by this thing…. Don’t you feel that way Sirs? Oh Sirs.. Don’t you want to wipe it out from your minds and hearts? then you are fresh, young, with clean mind and not crippled with sorrow and fear…..Pause…..

Q: The fact is that we do not sec the emptiness; what we see is attachment which that emptiness creates, generates. So the fact of attachment is suffering because we have never seen the emptiness. We never see the fact of attachment or the emptiness.

K: Please Sir, that is not my question. What I am asking you and you…..

Q: What are the implications of suffering?

K: What are the implications of suffering? Don’t you know? I will tell you once again.. Oh! My son dies, I am left suddenly, I am without a companion suddenly, the feeling of perpetuating myself through my son is gone; suddenly I am lonely. Suddenly I have nothing to live for — with one stroke everything has gone, the wife does not mean any more to me, the word God, the idea -… The fact is I am in torture; those are the significance of death. Don’t you know it? No? Yes?

Q: Yes. But what does it imply?

K: The lady says: what does that imply? I am coming to that. How do you enquire into suffering, that is my point — not what are the causes, you know the causes, any intelligent man if you give a few seconds to him he will know it. But I am trying to ask you, which you are trying to avoid, you are not facing the fact; you are suffering, how do you tackle it Sirs?

Q: Go on suffering.

K: The gentleman says: go on suffering? Alright Sir, you accept suffering as inevitable.

Q: Without accepting or rejecting it.

K: The gentleman says: without accepting or denying, go on suffering.

A.Q.: Suffering and yourself are not two; when you divide that there is suffering.

K: The gentleman says; when you divide yourself there is suffering; Oh Sirs, how you are playing with it… I want to know how to be free of it, I want to be out of it, you don’t seem to help me Sirs.

Q: Stop thinking of it.

K: Take a drug, go to a cinema, take a drink, take a tranquilliser. Will that help me? You follow what you are all saying to me? You are advising me how to kill suffering, you are advising me with lot of words, aren’t you?

A.Q.: Excuse me Sir; there cannot be a general solution to suffering as there are different types of suffering; for instance, you want to achieve a particular goal, and if you achieve that goal you are happy, there is no suffering. How can there be a general suffering, I want to understand from you that.

K: The gentleman says: suffering varies. How can there be a general panacea. I am not talking of a panacea Sir, I am not talking of general suffering. I am talking of suffering. You and I know different ways. But how do you meet it?

Q: Understand it.

K: How do you understand it Sir?

A.Q.: Unless and until I do not enquire myself the existence of Eternal Goal and I am not face to face with it myself…..

K: Oh Sirs, please.. You have given me 10 different explanations, I can supply another 10. We give explanations, the more cunning, the more sharp can add; you are satisfied with words Sir. I want to end it, you understand Sir?……..

Q: What is the reason of suffering, I have given 10 explanations; one person will suffer from one or another from 10 different reasons.

K: The gentleman says: One will suffer for one reason and another for another reason. Sir, I am talking of Suffering and not the reason.

Q: Being confused and never having stayed with suffering, do I know how to tackle it?

K: The gentleman says: Being confused do I know how to tackle suffering? Sir, just a minute. You all suffer in different ways, don’t you?

Q: Yes.

K: Don’t you want to be out of it? Yes Sir? ..

Q: Yes Sir.

K: Now what is the question? You ask, when a man asks: I want to be out of it, not find explanations, would he care for words, for ashes? That is what you are giving me — ashes — You never tell him what to do. I come with suffering because your grandmother is blind, this and that explanation, 10 different explanations you give me and at the end of it I am still empty-handed. Pause..

Q: When you know Thyself…

K: Sirs, Please. I said for two minutes listen to me, to what is being said, not to your own minds. After all you are here to listen to somebody else, apart from your own evolutions and revolutions of thought — you are here to listen to the speaker, so be good enough, courteous enough to listen to him. Pause..

I want to know when I suffer how to be free of it. Not with words, not with explanations; I want to be free as I want to be free when I have a tooth-ache actually, then I go to the nearest doctor and I ask him, I don’t sit down, explain, explain, but I cay I want to be out. If that is the mind that asks and that responds to the challenge that wants to be out, then what will you do? Pause.. It can only then look at the fact, isn’t it? and stop escaping altogether. Right? Pause.. It does not appeal to you. Does it? I want to know why I suffer, therefore I cannot escape through explanations, through drink, through woman, through radio, through several such forms of away from this thing. You understand Sir? I want to understand the thing, I want to break through it, crash through it, put it away everlastingly, never touch that, that will never touch my mind again, which means, I want to be with it, I want to know all about it, not give words to it, give explanations to it; I want to know. Isn’t that the fact Sir? Pause…

As I would go to the nearest and the best doctor to see that there is no pain — in the same way I want to finish it.

Q: That is why we have come to the doctor (laughter).

K: If you have come to the doctor, then listen to him — not blindly, not authoritarian, but listen right through the end and destroy this torture which prevents the human being, which leads you to all sorts of illusion and delusion.

I am not going to escape from it, you understand? No amount of explanation, no amount of words, no Gita, no Upanishad, no Guru, nothing — I am not going to escape from it, because I see through escape there is no solution, you understand? However subtle, however cunning, however beautiful, reasonable, I won’t touch it. Then what happens to the mind that has stopped escaping, that has no longer Gita, Upanishad, Guru, the reincarnation, the tradition. It has stopped everything. Pause… It is facing something, Sir, what does it do? What is the state of the mind? you understand Sir, what is the state of the mind that wants to grapple with this thing and come out of it clean-washed, bright, spotless. What is the state of the mind Sir?

Q: It is a Fire..

K: You see, you are really with words. Before I have even asked you, you are out. Oh! what is the matter with you gentlemen, please Sir, Do wait, go into it, tear your hearts and minds to find out, don’t give words to me; what is the state of the mind that is no longer escaping, which is very, you know, which requires precision.

Q: Look at the suffering of the fact.

K: Please.. I ask what is the state of the mind that looks, observes?

Q: Hypnotised.

K: Sir, don’t quote me — experience the thing that I am talking about and you will be out of it Sir.

You see Sir, I have stopped turning on the radio, because I suffer, I stopped reading a book, I stopped chattering, I stopped seeking, I don’t, there is no question of getting out of it, which is another form of escape. I have finished with all that, you understand! You have finished, if you realise that to look at something there must be no escape of any kind, there you have to be scientifically ruthless with yourself, there is no self-pity of any kind. Sir, what is the state of the mind that has no self-pity, that is not escaping? Experience it Sirs, go into it. Don’t explain it to me. What is the state of the mind?

Pause… Long Pause…

K: For the first time you have no words; I have stopped you use all words, so you are stuck, aren’t you? Before, you induced in words, explanations, quotation, now you have no words because you are choked. So words have stopped, you follow? So what is the state of the mind that knows suffering, that has suffered, that has gone through the travail of existence, it is faced with the stark fact. Right Sir? Now, how does the mind observe that stark fact? What is the state of the mind that observes. Don’t give me explanation please. Stop a minute before you begin to explain. Pause…

Now, let us look into the word “observation”. You understand? Not the thing that you are looking at, but the “state of observation”, you understand Sir, How do you observe, that is what I want to know. How do you look at something; when you look at your wife, husband, child or tree or flower, how do you look.

When you look at a woman, if you are a man, how do you look at her, or a woman, if you look at a man, how do you look? What happens, all kinds of pictures, ideas, desires, everything surges forward. You see Sir? I feel you should be out of suffering when you leave from this room; otherwise what is the point of your existence? Pause… So, you must be free and I am trying to point it out to you which does not mean you accept it — I am not your authority, or Guru and all that Tommy rot. The fact is: how do you observe; if you could understand that, that thing, then you will come to something which will help you to understand sorrow.

Q: When I observe every movement of the mind stops.

K: The gentleman says: when you observe every movement of the mind as thought, stops. Have you ever observed anything that way? It happens, does not it? When you see a most lovely thing, a beautiful mountain, a beautiful sunset, a ravishing smile, a ravishing face, that fact stuns you and you are silent; hasn’t it ever happened to you? Then you hug the world in your arms; but that is something from outside which comes to your mind; but I am talking of the mind which is not stunned, but which wants to look, observe. Now, can you observe without all this up-surging of conditioning?

Q: Before the sorrow, the whole thing becomes…

K: Wait Sir, do listen to me, ..Can you look at something without the up-surging of conditioning — to a person in sorrow I explain in words: sorrow is inevitable, sorrow, I accept, sorrow is the result of fulfilment, you know? when all that has completely stopped and you can look; which means, when you are not looking from the centre, you understand Sir? Can you? You realise something that is happening? Pause.. When you look from a centre your faculties of observation are limited. Obviously. If I hold a post and want to be there, then there is a strain, there is pain, you follow? when I look from the centre into suffering there is suffering. Pause.. Oh Sirs, do look at it… You understand Sir? It is the incapacity to observe that creates pain. I cannot observe if I think, function, be from a centre, which is: I must have no pain, I must find out why I suffer, I must escape and so on and so on — from the centre when I observe — whether that centre is a conclusion, an idea, hope, despair or anything — from a centre — that observation is very restricted very narrow, very small, it is restricted, narrow, small observation that engenders sorrow. Oh, come on Sirs…

So, when I want to understand suffering because of the intensity of wanting to understand I do not look at it from a centre. You follow? Pause. You see Sir, I want to be free from sorrow. Free, so that it will never touch the mind again, the mind says: it is ugly thing, it is a brutal thing, it distorts perception, it distorts living, death and everything. There must be a total comprehension and therefore total wiping it away from the whole of the mind, and I see — that is the challenge, and the mind responds according to its conditioning to its background, from its centre. Right? — So the observation of the fact is prevented, when it is functioning from a centre. Right? When I look at the world Sir as a stupid nationalist of nationalism, as stupid as nationalist, do you know what happens, I can’t, I can’t look at another human being who comes from abroad, I have no relationship with him, I may talk of brotherhood, peace and all that bilge; but I can’t look when I am a nationalist. So which is, I am looking, observing from a centre which I call “nationalist”, within the boundaries of a petty small island. Go I can only look at the full, whole world and be with the world totally, wholly, when I have no centre as the nationalist, as a Hindu and all the rest of it. Right Sir? You understand?

So what is important is to look at, observe without the centre, and then there is no suffering ever more. Out. There will be physical suffering, the kidneys will go wrong, you may have cancer, blindness, death will occur, but you are then able to look physical suffering, every torturous psychological suffering without the centre. Therefore you will never have psychological suffering, and it is only the mind that does not suffer that has no fear. It is only such a mind that is in a state of compassion.

Sirs, do go out of this room with that intensity, when the challenge is so great respond greatly — not from a little corner of the Universe as the Me.