K School – Students Talk 2, Rishi Valley, 22 January 1966

*Identification: 22nd of January, 1966, this is Mr J. Krishnamurti’s second talk to the students of Rishi Valley School.*

(Chanting)

Krishnamurti (K): It’s a lovely morning, isn’t it? Cool, fresh, and there is dew on the grass, and the birds are singing. I hope you enjoyed it this morning as much as I did, looking out of the window—cloudless blue sky, clear shadows and sparkling air, and all the birds, the trees, and the earth shouting with joy. I hope you listened to it.

I would like, this morning, to talk about something that we all must understand. To understand something, one has to listen, as you would listen to those birds. If you would hear that clear call, their song, you must listen very closely, very attentively, follow each note, follow each movement of the sound, see how deeply it goes and how far it reaches. So one has to listen. And if you know how to listen, you learn a great deal. And it is more important than anything else in life—to listen, because if you know how to listen, you understand a great deal, and to listen you have to be very attentive. If your mind, if your thoughts, if your heart, is thinking about other things, feeling other things, you can’t listen to those birds. To listen, you have to give your whole attention to it. And that’s fairly easy. When you are watching a bird and are looking at the feathers, the colour, the beak, the size and the lovely shape of a bird, then you are giving you heart, your mind, your body, everything that you have, to watch it. And then you are really part of that bird. You really enjoy that. So in the same way, this morning, please listen. Not that you must agree with what we are talking about, or reject, put aside because you think differently, but just listen. You know, I do not know if you have ever sat on the banks of a river and watched the waters go by. You can’t do anything about it. There, there is clear water, the dead leaves and the dead branches, you see some dead animal go by, and you are watching all that. You see the movement of the water, the clarity of the water, the swift current of the water and the fullness of the water. So, and you can’t do anything. You just watch. Let it go by. So in the same way, listen to what I want to talk about this morning, because as I said, it is one of the most important things to learn in life—freedom. If you are not free, you can’t do anything. If the bird isn’t free, it can’t fly. If the tree, the seed is not free to blossom, to give, to push out of the earth, then if it has no freedom, it can’t live. Everything must have freedom, including human beings. Human beings are frightened of freedom. They don’t want freedom. Birds, rivers, trees, everything demands freedom, and we must demand it too, not in half measure but with full measure, demand it completely. But you see freedom, that is liberty, independence to express what one thinks, to do what one wants to do, is one of the most important things in life. But freedom, as it is one of the most important things and also it is one of the most difficult things to have in life. To be really free from anger, jealousy, nationalism, brutality, cruelty, to be really free, deeply within oneself, is one of the most difficult and dangerous things. Because you can’t have freedom merely for the asking of it. You can’t say I will be free to do what I like. You can’t do what you like. Life won’t allow it, because there are other people also wanting to be free, also wanting to express what they feel, also want to do what they wish, they want, they crave for. So everybody wants to be free and yet they want to express themselves, their anger, their brutality, their ambition, their competition and so on, so on.

So there is always conflict. I want to do something and you want to do something, and so we fight. But freedom isn’t that, to do what one wants. It requires tremendous understanding. Because we can’t live by ourselves; we can’t go away into some monastery, become a sanyasi. Even the monk, even the sanyasi is not free, he can’t do what he wants, because what he wants, he has to struggle, fight, always quarrelling within himself, debating himself, arguing within himself. And it requires enormous intelligence, sensitivity, understanding, to be free. But yet it is absolutely necessary for every human being, whatever his culture be, that he must be free. But you see, freedom you cannot have without order. You know what order is? You know how you keep your room in order—put everything in its place, clean the room, wipe the floor, wipe the windows, take away the dust, then you create order in your room. In the same way, freedom doesn’t exist without order. The two go together. If you cannot have order, you cannot have freedom. So the two are inseparable. If I say I will do what I like, I will turn up to my meals when I like, I will come to the class when I like, when you come to the class, when you come to your meals when you like, you create disorder. There are other people. You have to take into consideration other people, what other people want. To run things smoothly, you have to come on time. If I, this morning, if I came ten minutes late, I will keep you waiting. So I have to have consideration. I have to think of others. I have to watch, I have to be polite, considerate, be concerned about other people. And out of that consideration, out of that thoughtfulness, out of that watchfulness, both outwardly and inwardly, order comes, and with that order there comes freedom.

You know, soldiers all over the world are drilled every day. Hour after hour, all day long they are drilled, told what to do, to walk in line, to obey orders implicitly without thinking. Do you know what that does? When you are told what to do, what to think, obey, follow, instantly obey what their officers tell, do you know what it does to the mind? The mind becomes dull, the mind becomes stupid, it loses its initiative, its quickness. So discipline, this external, outward imposition of discipline, makes the mind stupid, it makes you conform, it makes you imitate. But if you discipline yourself, if you bring about order within yourself: watching, listening, being considerate, being very thoughtful, out of that watchfulness, listening, watching, consideration of others, out of that comes order. And where there is order, there is always freedom. So you cannot separate freedom, that is liberty, independence, to do what one thinks, all that is denied if there is no order. If you are all shouting, talking, all at once, you can’t hear another, what another has to say. You can only hear when you sit quietly, when you give your attention, when you are not thinking about something else. But out of that watching, listening, consideration, comes order. And that order, you cannot have consideration, order, thoughtfulness, if you are not free to watch—you understand what I mean?—if you are not free to watch, if you are not free to listen, if you are not free to be considerate. And this is one of the most difficult and urgent problems in life—this freedom and order. And it’s a very complex, difficult problem. It needs to be thought over much more than Mathematics, Geography or History. Because as I said, if you are not free, really free, you can never blossom, you can never be good, and there is no beauty. So freedom and order are absolutely essential for a human being, as for everything else in life. Now we’ll talk. You’ll ask questions and see what comes out of that.

Student (S): Sir, what is soul and does it die, sir?

K: What is soul and does it die. How do you know that word *soul*? Which soul are you referring to? The sole of your shoe? (*Laughter*) Or the soul that people have talked about?

S: That people have talked about, sir.

K: That’s right. So you don’t know anything about it, do you?

S: No.

K: Now, you won’t accept what people say, will you? You will examine what they will say, you will consider what they say about the soul, apart from the shoe. So you have to examine, haven’t you? If you accepted what I or what somebody else or I say, then you won’t examine it, right? So, you have to examine for yourself to find out the truth of the matter, right? To examine, you mustn’t be prejudiced, must you? You mustn’t take sides. Right? You mustn’t be biased. You must be free to examine. Right? Free, which means, to examine, you must have order. Right? That means you must have freedom to examine and to examine you must have order, order to think clearly, to observe without prejudice, without bias, without any kind of moral, or physical or psychological pressure. Right? So freedom is necessary to examine, and to examine you must have order. Right? Now, let’s find out freely, to examine orderly, if there is such thing as soul. Right? Now, what is generally implied in that word? Implied, not the word itself, but the implication behind that word. What is implied behind that word?

S: Mind, sir?

K: No, no, don’t jump to conclusion. Not mind. They mean generally, don’t they?, that is something, some essence, some quality, some state, which is not produced or induced or put together by the mind, by thought. A spiritual entity, right?, that is not controllable by the mind or that is not, that cannot be killed, that is something permanent and all that, isn’t it? Right? That is generally what is implied by that word. Right? Now. Oh Lord, it’s a very complex question, this, you understand? (*Laughs*) I hope you are following it. You are not going to sleep after it, are you? (*Laughter*) All right, we’ll follow it. So that’s what people say there is, a soul, meaning a spiritual entity, quality, a timeless thing, that doesn’t die. Now. Now why do people want such a thing, or think there is such a thing? You understand my question? Why do people want it? And how has it come into being, who has invented it, or is there such thing?, you understand? There are three things involved in it—whether it is real, if it isn’t real, who has invented it, and why has man throughout the ages imagined or thought or hoped, or invented such a thing. You understand? First, to find out the truth of something, you must be free and you must examine in an orderly way, right? Otherwise you can’t find out. And to have order, you must be free from prejudice. Right.

We see that life changes, that everything undergoes a change all the time. Right? The leaves fall from the tree when it’s very cold and the spring comes, and the new leaf comes. So there is change, change, change. Same with us. Nothing, as one sees, nothing is permanent. Right? I am not the same as I was fifteen, twenty, thirty, forty years ago. I am not the same as yesterday. So there is change. So people see this change and they say: ‘Isn’t there anything permanent?’ Right? ‘Is there nothing enduring?’ ‘Nothing which is not touched by time?’ So they see death, they see things changing, and human mind hopes that there is something permanent beyond all this change, flux, mutation. Right? So man says, by Jove, there must be, because he hopes for it, he longs for it. So he says there is a soul, there is an Atman, there is a something or other. Right? And also we easily accept this idea. It’s very comforting, because if I die, there is something in me that will continue. That gives me a great comfort. Right? So I like that idea and I cling to it. It gives me great hope. Right.

So, what is the truth of the matter? Right? To find out, you must be free from tradition, right?, what people say—doesn’t matter who it is. Right? Therefore, to find out, you must examine and to examine, you must have order. So human beings want, hope for something permanent, because they see there is nothing permanent in life. So thought, thinking, invents something which is permanent, which they call the soul, which they call God. So, one has to go into—which I won’t because it is too complex— now, one has to go into this question of why thought, which in itself is mechanical, thinks or creates something which it hopes to be non-mechanical. And so it invents the soul, it invents God, because if you can think about something, thought has created it, isn’t it? Right? I don’t know it you understand. If I can think about something, that something thought has invented. So thought has invented the soul and thinks about it. So it is still within the field of thinking. So then thinking is mechanical, is mere reaction, so there is nothing spiritual about it. So there may be something beyond, if thought can be silent. So to find out if there is something beyond thought, thought has to be quiet and to bring about that quietness naturally, easily, without effort, is part of meditation. That requires again tremendous examination. Right? Have I explained? Right.

S: What is understanding and how can we gain it?

K: What is understanding and how one can get it?

S: Gain it.

K: Gain it. Now what does that word mean, *to understand*? To understand, I believe it means, the word, dictionary meaning means to have knowledge of, to be well-informed, to grasp the significance; to feel, to be sensitive enough to feel what it is about. Generally, the word *understand* means to have comprehension about something, right? I understand and you understand English. Right? Because I know English and you know English. We have studied it or we have learnt it in our youth. So, that is generally the meaning of that word. But it is much more than that. You say something, and I either understand, that is listen to the words, and I say, ‘Yes, I have understood the meaning of the word’. You are following? So I say I understand you. That is, you and I both speak English, you say something to me, and I listen and I say, ‘I understand what you are talking about’. That is, I have understood verbally what you have said. I have got the meaning of what you have said, or I say, ‘I have understood what you have said’, which is, intellectually, right?, mentally. I have understood what you want to convey to me intellectually, and we use that word *understand* also for that. Then, you say something which is not only words, which is not only an intellectual understanding, but also a feeling. Right? You say something and I feel it very much. Right? So we divide understanding generally—word, intellection, cerebration, and feeling. Right? We generally say we understand when we mean all that. But, I feel, understanding is something much more than that. I really don’t understand merely when I say I understand you, what you say, verbally or intellectually or emotionally. Understanding is something which is total. You understand? Not merely words, not merely feeling, nor merely intellectual grasp. Understanding is something much more and you understand something much more totally, completely, when you listen intellectually, when you listen emotionally, when you listen to the word. You’ve got it? That is, you listen to the word, to the feeling, to the thought completely. Then in that unity, you understand wholly. (*Laughs*) Have I explained something, or not at all? What do you say, sir? You have understood something of it? Good.

S: Sir, if a man dies, sir, and the surgeons cut open his heart and make him live, where has his soul been in the meantime?

K: That’s just it. (*Laughter*) Probably in his shoe. (*Laughter*) All right, sir, wait a minute, I am going to ask you a question. I have talked about freedom and order this morning, freedom and discipline, why don’t you talk about that? Why don’t you ask questions about that? You want to be free, don’t you? No?

S: Sir, you said something about sensitivity, sir.

K: Wait, sir. Wait, sir. (*Laughter*) You are avoiding my question. I will answer you about that question, sensitivity, but you are not answering my question.

S: Sir, do you mean that to be free we should have no discipline?

S: Do you mean to say there should be no discipline to be free.

K: I carefully explained, lady, that you cannot have freedom without order and order is discipline. I don’t like to use that word *discipline* because it is laden with all kinds of meaning. Discipline means generally doesn’t it?, conformity, imitation, obedience, right?, you must do what you are told, doesn’t it? That word implies all that, doesn’t it? Right? Or you don’t know it, probably you don’t. Or you think freedom is to do what you like, right?, to go to the class or not to go to the class, to do whatever you like. Can you do what you like in a world? You can’t. So people say you must be disciplined, you *must* come to the meal, to the class, at a certain time. If you don’t, they punish you or they reward you, which is not freedom. But if you want to be free— and human beings must be free, completely. Otherwise, they can’t flower. Otherwise they can’t be real human beings. So one has to find out for oneself what it is to be orderly; what it is to be punctual, kindly, generous, not afraid. In finding all that out, the very finding is the disciplining, is bringing about order. And to find out, as we said, you must examine and to examine you must be free. Of course, you will have to have discipline. If all of you did exactly what you liked, you won’t turn up for the class; you won’t be punctual for the meals; you will keep the cooks waiting. But if you are considerate, if you are watching, if you are listening, then, because you are free, you will be punctual, you will come to the class regularly, you will study, you will be so alive, you want to do things rightly.

S: Sir, you say that freedom is very dangerous to man. Why is it so?

K: You say that freedom is dangerous to man. Why is it so. Why is freedom dangerous. You know what society is? Yes? What is it?

S: Sir, it is a big group of people and they tell you what to do and not to do.

K: Big group of people who tell you what to do and what not to do. Not only that, but it is the culture, the custom, the habit of a certain community; the social, moral, ethical, religious, you know religious structure in which man lives, that is generally called society. Now, if each individual in that society did what he liked, was free to do what he liked, he would be a danger to that society, wouldn’t he? If you did what you like here in the school, what would happen? You would be a danger to the rest of them, wouldn’t you? Right? So people don’t want, generally, others to be free. Do you understand? Because a man who is really free, not in ideas, but inwardly, is free from greed, ambition, envy, cruelty, he is a danger to people, because he is entirely different from the social structure of the ordinary man. So he becomes a danger. So either they worship him or kill him or be indifferent to him, and therefore he becomes a danger. Right.

S: Sir, I asked a question…

K: Yes, sir, I am coming to that. I haven’t forgotten it, sir. (*Laughter*) You asked what it is to be sensitive, right? If you are not sensitive, you wouldn’t hear that crow, that cock crowing, would you? Did you listen to that cock? You heard it, didn’t you? If you are deaf, if you are not paying attention, if you are thinking about something else, you wouldn’t have heard that cock, would you? So there is a sensitivity, right? And to see the birds, the sky, the mountains, the light, the shadow, the beauty of the earth and the marvel of the movement of the hills, you have to be sensitive to see that, haven’t you?, right? Otherwise, you wouldn’t see it. And you have to be sensitive, it is to be sensitive, when you are capable of quick understanding. Right? (*Laughs*) Understanding, not intellectually, emotionally, verbally, but totally. And you cannot be sensitive if you are prejudiced, right?, if you are thinking about yourself, if you are worried, if you have problems that you haven’t resolved and are held in those problems. Then you become insensitive, you become dull. If you merely obey without understanding, you become dull. If you merely follow somebody, you become dull, insensitive. If you accept the tradition, the nationalism, the wars, the brutality of man, obviously you are dull. And most people are dull because they live, they have accepted, they follow, they obey. So to be sensitive means to be beyond, and you can only be beyond the stupidity of man when you have understood the whole business of stupidity. You understand? Not merely say I don’t like it or like it. You have to examine it, understand it. So sensitivity is really the essence of intelligence. You understand?

S: Sir, can we avoid problems, sir?

K: Can we avoid problems. By Jove! How can you avoid problems? You have a problem of passing examinations, right? (*Laughs*) You have a problem with Mathematics. You are not good at Mathematics and so you make a problem of it. You can’t avoid it. Can you? You can’t run away from it. You can’t shut your eyes from it. You can’t say, well, I won’t go to that class, because I don’t like Mathematics. I don’t understand life, I don’t understand death, I don’t understand this or that and other things, and it becomes a problem and you can’t shut it out. It is just there. You may shut it out. You may shut the doors of your mind, but it is just behind the door. So you can’t avoid anything. The more you avoid, the more the problem becomes stronger. Avoidance itself is the problem. You understand? Say for instance, I have a sore thumb, and I avoid it by not thinking about it, right? What happens? I knock that thumb against something, and so it becomes—I have pain. But if I watch it, if I am very careful, understand what is implied in it, then there is no avoidance. So all human beings, unfortunately, have problems—problems with their family, with their wife, with their husband, with their children, with their government, earning a job and so on and on and on and on. Now, problems are unnecessary. It is not a question of avoiding them. But if you are very much awake all the time, then problem ceases to exist. It is only when you are asleep, when you are dull, insensitive, you have problems.

S: Sir, you said that we should have freedom and order. How are we to get it, sir?

K: You said that we must have freedom and order, and how are we to get it. First of all, you can’t depend on others, you understand? You can’t expect somebody to give you freedom and order— your father, your mother, your husband, your this, your teacher—you are not married yet. (*Laughs*) (*Laughter*). So you can’t expect freedom and order from anybody. Right? You have to bring it about in yourself. Right? That’s the first thing to realize, that you cannot ask anything from another, except food, clothes and shelter. You understand? So you cannot possibly ask, or look to anyone, your guru, your gods—nobody, that can give you freedom and order. So you have to find out how to bring about order in yourself. That is, you have to watch and find out for yourself what it means to be punctual, what it means to be considerate, what it means to bring about virtue in yourself. Because, these are—virtue, you know what virtue is?, being moral, being good—is order. So you have to find out in yourself how to be good, how to be kind, how to be considerate. And out of that consideration, out of watching, you bring about order and therefore, freedom. Because you see, you are not thoughtful, you are not attentive, therefore the people, your teachers or others say be punctual, do sit quietly, look at your book, you follow?, don’t look out of the window, don’t make so much noise. Because you are depending on others to tell you that you mustn’t look out of the window, that you must be punctual, that you must be kind. But, if you say well, I will look when I want out of the window, but as I am studying I am going to look at the book. You follow? So you bring order within yourself without being told by others.

S: What does one gain by being free, sir?

K: What does one gain by being free. Nothing. (*Laughter*) You see when you talk about what does one gain, you are really, you are thinking in terms of merchandise, aren’t you? Aren’t you? I will do this, and in return to that please give me something. I am kind to you because it is profitable to me. Right? And that’s not kindliness. So, as long as we are thinking in terms of gaining something, there is no freedom. If you say, well, if I get freedom I will be able to do this and that, then it is not freedom. So, don’t think in terms of utilitarianism. You understand that word, what that word means? *Utility,* I use you and you use me, and we call that being kind, being affectionate, being kind, being—what?, loving. So as long as we are thinking in terms of usage, there is no question of freedom at all. One must be beyond all this to be free, which means, really, freedom can only exist when there is no motive. You don’t love somebody because they give you food, or clothes or shelter. Then it’s not love.

S: Sir…

K: All right, sir, I don’t mind, I’ll carry on as long as you like, but I don’t know your class.

S: Sir, can the crude, stupid and dull mind become sensitive?

K: Can a dull, stupid mind become sensitive. Now just listen. You put that question. Find out. When the dull, stupid mind says I am not sensitive, it’s already sensitive, isn’t it? (*Laughter*) No, no. Right? You are following? I say to myself I don’t know, I am dull, not clever, stupid. When I become aware of it, sensitive to it, I am already less dull, am I not? But what happens? When I say I am dull and I must become more sensitive, then I am making an effort to change that which is dull. Dullness cannot be changed into sensitivity. What takes place is, when the mind, when your whole being becomes aware that you are dull, that very awareness is the beginning of sensitivity. Right?

Now will you—wait a minute, I wanted to suggest something else. We won’t talk about meditation, because it’s a very complex question. Do you go out for walks by yourself? Or do you always go in couples, or with a lot of people? Because when you go by yourself sometimes, not too far away, because you are too young, it is very good to be alone.

S: Sir, what is God and who created Him, sir?

K: Wait a minute, old boy, we’re talking… (*Laughter*) What is God and who created the bird, is that it? What is God and who created God. Man. (*Laughs*) We won’t go into that. Wait a minute. Just listen to what I am saying, first. I am saying, don’t always go in couples, in a group, go sometimes by yourself— not too far away, because you are too young. But go away by yourself. Then you will get to know yourself: what you think, what you feel, who has hurt you, who is your friend, why he is your friend, and what you want to be. Find out. And you can’t find out about yourself if you are always walking, going about with your own friends, with half a dozen people. So sometimes go alone. Sit under a tree quietly by yourself, not with a book. Just look at the stars, the clear sky, the birds, the shape of the leaf, watch the shadow, watch the bird across the sky. So, by being with yourself, sitting quietly under a tree, you begin to understand your own workings of your own mind, and that is as important as going to the class. And also when you come here in the mornings, sit quietly. Sit completely quiet. You haven’t, all this morning, sat one second quiet, all of you. Right? You are fidgeting, you are talking, you are pulling somebody’s hair, looking at somebody else, you are looking out of the window, and so on. You are endlessly, like an elephant, moving back and forth—inwardly and outwardly. You never sit still. There is a boy who is beating his chin. (*Laughs*) Somebody is yawning. Now, will you do something? Just completely sit quiet. Take comfortable position and sit completely quiet. Now wait a minute. Before you sit quiet, be sensitive to the cock crowing, to the flowers, be alive to all this, you understand?, and sit quiet and that sitting quiet, become aware of all of this—the beauty of the earth, the cock crowing. And you can’t be aware if you are not completely quiet.

(*Long pause*)

Right, sir.