K School Discussion 3, Brockwood Park, 4 October 1973

Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?

Questioner: Sir, the other day you mentioned if the mind could think unemotionally, without emotions?

K: Did I say that?

Q: No, not exactly that word.

K: I used the word ‘objectively’.

Q: You mentioned the word ’emotion’.

K: All right, sir, what were you going to say?

Q: If we could discuss and find out what you meant.

K: Do you want to discuss that?

Q: I think it’s also interesting and a very worthwhile way to somehow go into how we talk with you. Clarify that more.

K: How you, how most of you listen to what is being said. And how you listen. And do you listen critically, objectively, or you don’t listen at all, or you listen only to words. All these things are involved in your question. Is that it, sir? Right.

How do you listen? He asked me a question, he said, ‘The other day in your talk, in your dialogue, you said you can think, don’t think emotionally.’ Now, when you listen to that, how do you listen? What is your reaction to it? What is your capacity which begins to investigate his question, that statement. Do you listen to it uncritically, or do you say, what does he mean by that? It may be wrong or right, that doesn’t matter — what does he mean by thinking apart from emotion? And is emotion unrelated to thinking? Come on, sir, discuss with me. This is what we’re doing now — we’re answering your question. How do I listen? Please, do pay — it is really very important, this. How do you listen? Or you don’t listen at all? Like the other day, somebody there said, he wasn’t listening to something that was being said. Now I’m asking you, how do you listen? Critically? Objectively, in the sense, not personally, not from your centre, your prejudice, your feeling, oh, I wish you’d shut up, let him talk? Or some other kind like that? Or do you, do you find out what it means?

That is, someone criticises me, tells me I am not paying attention, tells me I really don’t listen to what is being said. Or says I’m rather stupid. Now, that’s a criticism. Now how do I listen to that criticism? How do you listen to a criticism? I say to you, ‘You’re not as intelligent as I thought you were, you are in many ways immature, rather stupid.’ Now, how do you listen to that? Do you build a wall against it? Or do you say, what do you mean? Why do you say I’m stupid? In what way does my stupidity show? What makes you say that I’m stupid? Is it that you’re also stupid and therefore you bring everybody into that stupidity? You understand what I’m talking?

Now, how do you listen to it? Come on, answer, question, discuss with me. How do you listen to my statement that you are rather stupid. How do you listen to it? That’s a criticism, that is an exposure of you, publicly or privately, how do you act on that, what is your reaction?

Q: I would think in the first second that there would be, what would happen is I would look at what I’m doing, or what I’ve said, or how I acted, and does the meaning ‘stupid’ fit that. If I do see and I ask you, is this what you mean? And if I wouldn’t see something, I’d say, ‘What do you mean?’

K: Look, Ted, before you go to that, do you listen to my criticism?

Q: Or just hear it.

K: I’m telling you — not you personally. I say you’re stupid. Do you listen to that? Or do you say, immediately put a wall up?

Q: I would probably have to deal with my own reaction before I could listen to you.

K: No, old boy, just listen to my — first I say — not you, you understand — I say you’re stupid or very clever. How do you listen? Do you listen to that? Or is your reaction so quick that you don’t listen to it at all? Do you understand what I mean? So to listen to a criticism, you must be familiar with your reaction, mustn’t you? You must know your reaction. Then you say, ‘All right, I’ll keep my reaction back. Now what do you mean by that calling me a stupid person? Why? What makes you say that?’ Now, that is objective thinking. You follow? Non-emotional, where you are enquiring, and I am willing to go with you to find out.

Q: But when you say ‘know your reaction’, what do you mean?

K: Look, you call me a fool. My reaction, immediate reaction, is to say, ‘You are another.’ You follow? And am I familiar, do I know why I say that? I may be a fool, but by saying you are another, I cover myself, don’t I, I hide myself, I’ve stopped enquiring about myself. Right? So my reaction is to call you another and therefore protect myself. Which is an emotional reaction. Right? Whereas if I say, ‘All right, I know my reaction, I won’t call you another.’ Now what do you mean by calling me a fool? What makes you say that? You follow? Then you and I are in communication. You follow? Then you and I are trying to find out if I am really a fool.

Q: When somebody calls you a fool, he means it.

K: Even that, I want to find out if I’m a fool, why you call me a fool. You may mean it, but I want to know why. So criticism, it doesn’t matter from whom it comes, is rejected only by the stupid. But a criticism from anybody is a challenge to further enquiry. You follow? So if you say I’m a fool, I say, ‘All right, I know my reaction, but I want to find out.’ You see the point? So I am willing to listen to the criticism. You may be wrong, but I want to find out. And if you’re right, I say, why does he, and so on. You follow? The whole process of enquiry is in the act of listening. I don’t know if you are following this?

MZ: Krishnaji, are you saying that there may be the reaction which is instantaneous with many people, but one then doesn’t go with it.

K: Doesn’t go with it, hold it back, know it.

MZ: You go on.

K: Yes, say, all right, I know my immediate response is to hit you back, verbally or physically, I hold it. I say to you — or I won’t say it to you — I say, ‘Learning is tremendously important, specially when you are young.’ Of course, it’s necessary all the time, right through life, but specially while you’re young, it is tremendously important to know what it means to learn. Right? You hear that. Right? Then what will you do with that statement? You’ve understood? What will you do, that I say, learning is tremendously important. Then you would ask — you don’t ask, it’s so pitiful. Then you would ask, learning what, from whom, learning from a book, learning from watching, learning by listening. So: book, watching and listening.

Q: Could you give us a definition of learning?

K: What, sir?

Q: What do you mean by learning?

K: Listen, I make that statement. I say learning from books, learning from listening, learning from observing.

Q: What about learning from doing?

K: Learning from doing is learning, the doing is not separate from seeing. Wait. I’ll come to that in a minute. I really mean it, I’ll come back to that. You understand? Learning is from books, learning from listening, learning from seeing. The other day Carlos said, ‘Don’t learn from books, they are a lot of lies, history.’ Now I listen to it. Is he right? I don’t say he’s wrong or say he’s an ignorant man because he hasn’t read a thing, I listen to what he says. Right? Now I say to myself, ‘What would happen if I didn’t read a single book.’ You are following all this? What would happen? Go on, sir.

Q: You wouldn’t know what people were saying about themselves and about society and what many different people’s impression were.

K: What makes me say — listen to me.

Q: I don’t say what you say I say. You say I say something, I speak something I don’t speak.

K: Wait a minute, sir — you said history was all lies.

Q: Yes.

K: Put it away, you can see that, put it away. That’s what I’m referring to.

Q: I didn’t say, don’t read books.

K: Wait, sir.

Q: That’s something that is imagined, like a step in this…

K: When you deny one series of books, you must also deny many other books. I’m not saying, Carlos said all books, I very carefully said, history. Now, if I didn’t read, what would happen?

Q: Didn’t read anything?

K: Is that possible? You understand? So I have to say now, what is education? You follow how my mind, you’re listening? What is education if there are no books. How do I learn about the universe? You follow? About how to think, what are mathematics. You follow? History may be lies but in studying history I begin to learn how to discern what is true, what is false, whether this and that. You follow? If I don’t read at all, my mind becomes, what? I can’t discuss with anybody. You follow? I can’t have a dialogue with an intelligent man.

Q: You have nothing to enquire about.

K: I’ve nothing to say. He talks, say for instance yesterday there was a Labour Conference, and Wilson was speaking, very clever, amusing — did you listen, some of it?

Q: No.

K: Amusing, and he became very serious at the end. And he wanted to change, rather, there should be no private ownership of property on which buildings can go up. You follow what that means? He wanted to nationalise many things. I have never read a book, I have never listened, don’t know what politics is, and I — what? You follow? My mind is incapable of discerning, of, you know, I’m an ignorant man. I don’t know how to work at anything. So learning from books gives the mind the capacity to discern, the capacity to function mechanically. I hope you’re following all this. It gives me an opportunity to sharpen my mind. And so on.

Now, learning from watching. That’s what I’ve done in my life, my personal life. I haven’t read much, I’ve read a great deal of, in the old days, when I was at school, the usual books, but later on I’ve read a great deal of poetry, a great deal of the Bible, not because of belief, especially the Old Testament, because the New Testament seemed to me very sentimental, I didn’t read it — it may be my misfortune. And I read it because of the language, the beauty of the language. Have you read the Bible ever? The Old Testament — not what they talk about, it’s all rubbish, most of it, but the language they use, Isaiah, full of — you follow?

Now, and I haven’t read philosophy, I haven’t read religious books, it doesn’t interest me, they bore me, but I’ve watched, I’ve watched tremendously, the birds, the trees, the wind, the people, what they say, how they look, their gestures, the way they eat, their walk — then I listened very, very, very carefully to everything that went on round me, what they said, how they said it, with harshness, with brutality, with jealousy, with anxiety. You follow? I listened. So I learned by watching and listening.

So there are books, watching and listening. And when that takes place you are completely attentive. You understand? I wonder if you get it. All the time. That is, you have got a mind that has read a little bit, as most of us do, and a capacity to observe, observe without me projecting myself. I’ve had lunches, dinners with Bernard Shaw, with, once or twice with Wells, and various ministers, Prime Ministers, all the rest of the writers, Aldous Huxley and so on and so on. I felt ignoramus. You understand? Because they would talk about politics, and I said, ‘My God, I know nothing about it.’ Though I canvassed for Mr Landsbury — you know who Mr Landsbury was? No, you don’t know — he was a Labour minister, in the East End. So I used to move among all these high, intellectual, political gang — very clever, very erudite, they would talk about pictures, paintings, yoga, they would talk about yoga as though they — and they had read everything about it, and I would listen. And I learnt a great deal, not from what they said only, but how they said it. I don’t know if you are meeting me? I listened, to Ramsay MacDonald, you know who he was? He was a Labour minister, first Labour minister. Clever chap! (laughter) And politicians in France and India and so on and so on.

So my mind was acquainted with all those things, pictures, museums, good music. You follow? And gradually out of that, I saw for myself. You understand what I’m saying? It opened my eyes, and I said — you follow?

Q: Not that you became an intellectual first?

K: Oh, no, I disliked the intellectuals, because they were just words, words, words, cunning expressions and theories, and I said, Oh Lord! So one learns through books, through hearing, listening. And when all that is combined, a total act, it is a total act — you understand? — not a partial act, then you’re solid. I wonder if you understand all this. Right, now, you’ve listened to that. Now, are you learning from books? You are, aren’t you? Should you? Come on, sirs, discuss it.

Q: Could we look, just for a second, at the enquiry, how is the book preventing you from learning?

K: Look, I want to teach you English literature. There are marvellous pieces of English literature. I want you to read it, to feel it, to see the words they use, the rhythm, the quality of the words. If you didn’t read that, how would you know? If you didn’t know how Keats or any good poet, first-class, top rate poet, used words, how would you know for yourself the nature of words? You understand what I’m talking? Unless you have something to express, you then create your own style, but to create that style you must have the instrument, you must have the words. You understand? Therefore you learn from English, from books, in which there is good English literature. I mean this is so obvious. Right? That is, if you want to learn, for example, French or Italian or whatever language you want to learn, you can only learn by living in that country, or by reading their grammar and reading some of their literature, otherwise you can’t learn a language. I wonder if you get all this? Therefore books are necessary, you can’t just scrap them and say let’s all be ignorant — lovely, it would be.

And, do you observe? This is — I must get at this for you. Do you observe? Come on, sirs, do you observe?

Q: I think we all do a certain amount of observing.

K: Now, I ask you, do you observe. You don’t ask me what do you mean by that word? You understand?

Q: Yes, what do you mean, sir?

K: I suggested it to you — you don’t ask me! (laughs) What do I mean by observe? I’ll tell you. Observe the trees, the birds, how they fly, how they sit, how they pick up things; observe how people walk, how they sit, what their gestures are, and how they eat. I’ll tell you something rather amusing. I was staying with somebody in Rome, before the War, and I was staying with people who were supposed to be super-aristocrats of England, and a king wanted to see me. He came. And I watched him, how he ate. He had been trained tremendously. So I watched him. And I also watched before various people eating — the French, the Italians, the Germans, the English, and the Americans. And watching them I learnt how to eat properly myself. And when I saw this man, at lunch, I watched and by Jove, you know, he did it so beautifully, without the least movement. I watched it and I did it.

So by watching you learn a tremendous lot. Watching yourself, what you think, what you feel, why you feel, whether you’re repeating what somebody says, whether you’re a second-hand human being. And I listen, I listen to music, I listen to every type of music; and I listen very carefully to what people say, because their voice, the words they use, comes out, if you listen very carefully, what lies behind the word. You understand?

So when you do all this, you become so highly sensitive, alive. That’s what I mean by learning, by observing. Are you doing this? Isn’t this education? Wouldn’t you say this is education? Now, are you doing all the three?

JP: Is it possible to have your eyes open and not do it?

K: And not see? Obviously. If I am prejudiced, if I say I’m God Almighty, if I’m proud, of course, I’ve shut my eyes and I look. To observe, to listen, you must have a certain sense of humility.

Q: Also a certain sense of just seeing it as it is, because…

K: Of course, that’s just it.

Q: …it could be, yourself could say, that’s the way a king is.

K: Of course. That’s why I said to you, when that man came to eat, I watched very carefully. And I’m asking, are you doing that here, watching, listening, reading. If the three don’t go together, you’ll be lop-sided. You understand?

Q: Watching something like a tree is one thing, and watching another person — how can I watch?

K: Of course. I watch you. I think you’re much cleverer than I am. I watch you and I find you are really clever, or more intelligent than I am. Now what takes place? I watch you and I see that you’re more intelligent than I am. Then what takes place?

Q: First of all…

K: In me, what takes place in me?

Q: If I have an image of how intelligent I am…

K: No, listen to what I said, sir — you’ve not listened to what I said. I watch you and I see you’re much more, what? I use, I don’t want — much more…

Q: Sharper, perceptive?

K: Perceptive, any word would do. I don’t want to use intelligent, because it has it’s own content, so I’m careful of using that word — much more alive, perceptive, much more…

Q: Energetic?

K: Yes, call it. Then what takes place in me? I observe you are much more sharp, not dull, alive — what takes place in me?

BJ: It could be one of two things, sir. Either I could worship you, look up to you, or I could watch you carefully.

K: Or, what takes place, what generally takes place?

BJ: Jealousy.

K: Jealousy, isn’t it? You say, ‘By Jove, you’re so alive, I am not.’ Jealous. Or I say, ‘How am I to be like you?’ You follow? So I begin to imitate, out of my desire, out of my jealousy, out of my feelings: I’m nobody but he’s so good. I must be like him. So what takes place in me? I imitate. Imitation now has become the field of education. You follow? So I imitate, which means I copy, therefore I become very anxious.

Q: What’s the difference between that and what you were doing with the king?

K: Wait — the two things are entirely different. I’m glad you asked. One was purely a mechanical way of eating without the least movement and disturbance. Right? Because when there are half a dozen of you are in a row at a table, if each one of them ate like that, with their elbows out, with their knives stuck like that, there would be no — you have to keep your elbows in. Purely mechanical activity — that doesn’t require any emotion, you observe and I say, how neat a way of eating. In that there is no problem. Whereas, I watch you and I see that you’re much cleverer than I am, you’re much, you’re very good at books. And out of that I compare myself and say I am not as good as that, and I’m going to copy. You follow? The competitive spirit arises, the imitation arises, the struggle to be like somebody else. You’re following all this?

Q: Sir, if one is aware that they are doing a job that requires a great deal of concentration, then this awareness is limited, isn’t it?

K: That’s a different matter, sir. Say, for instance, if I’m gardening, that needs attention, a certain amount of attention. It doesn’t require total attention, it requires certain attention. I give it — there’s no problem there. But here there’s a much more complex problem involved. When I compare myself with you, I am destroying myself. Then I say to myself, ‘What am I destroying myself?’ You understand? What am I destroying? I wonder if you get this?

Look, sir, let me put it very simply. In a class, A is considered to be very clever, he gets all the marks. And X is considered to be the dullest boy. The teacher tells him, ‘Be like A. Work as hard as A.’ What happens to X? What happens to X? Come on, sirs, discuss with me.

Q: He becomes jealous and he finds that he is not capable of doing…

K: What has happened when you compare A to X, A being clever, X not being clever.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: What happens? Look, what happens to you if you’re compared to somebody who is much cleverer than you?

Q: You destroy the individual.

K: Wait, don’t bring in — I question — I didn’t want to bring in the individual yet. What happens to you?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: I compare you to him, who is more clever. What happens to you?

Q: I wonder why he’s more clever?

Q: He makes me feel small if you try to…

K: Look, I’m your teacher. Listen to it, listen — I’m your teacher, and I say you’re not as clever as Ted. What have I done to you? Ted is more important than you. Be simple. You’re not important but Ted is important, so be like him.

Q: Well, what if…

K: Listen — don’t. I compare you to Ted, Ted who is cleverer, more clever, more bright. Who is important, you or Ted? What are you hesitating?

Q: To you, Ted is more important.

K: Of course, so I make you feel dull. I make you feel less important.

Q: By saying that.

K: Yes. I am destroying you and praising him.

Q: Not if he doesn’t mind being dull.

K: Wait, sir. That’s something entirely different. If he says, ‘Look, you’re not as clever as Ted, it’s all right, sir, what about it?’ (laughter)

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Wait, wait, wait. What about it? I remain what I am, dull, stupid, whatever it is. I’m asking you a question which is, what happens when I compare you with Ted. I’m destroying you.

Q: Not if he doesn’t mind.

K: Sir, that’s not the point. He may not mind because he’s asleep.

Q: What doesn’t mind?

K: Of course, what doesn’t mind, because he’s asleep.

Q: Does he have necessarily to be asleep to not mind?

K: Look, if I say to you — listen to it carefully — if I say to you you’re not as efficient as X, what will you do, what is your reaction?

Q: That may be a fact, or it may not.

K: If it is a fact, what will you do?

Q: Try to become more efficient.

K: Which means what? Through comparison, you try to be as efficient as X, as A. And therefore there is a battle between you and A.

MZ: But, sir, supposing someone who does yoga marvellously comes to the school, as you say observe the way this person does the postures, is that a comparison?

K: No, no, no. Where’s that girl? I saw her doing gymnastics the other day on the lawn. Where is she?

Q: Helen, speak up.

Q: I’m here.

K: Oh, there you are. As she was doing it very well — I shouted out to her, ‘Bravo, go at it’. (laughter) Now, I look at it. I’m not comparing her with anybody else.

MZ: But if you told one of us, would it be a comparison, or would it be…

K: No, I would tell you facts, I would tell you a fact, how good she was at that particular act. Now, you want to be like her and you become jealous. And you say, ‘I must’. You follow? Learning implies non-comparison. I wonder if you get this.

Q: So if you…

K: Listen, sir. Forgive me for stopping you — I said, learning implies non-comparative effort. Wait, wait. Have you understood that? I may be wrong — find out. I said — what did I say?

Q: Learning implies non-comparison.

K: Learning is non-comparative effort.

Q: You mean in comparison to other people?

K: Comparison — don’t.

MZ: But that’s the point — is it people?

K: People.

MZ: If you are learning…

K: Look, I want to learn — look, I played golf. You know what game golf is? I was first-class at it. My handicap was two plus two and I went up as far as four plus four. And I played with the professionals only. And whenever I had to play, what do you call it, a competitive game, I was finished, I couldn’t. I liked the game. You follow? I didn’t like to fight to win. I just loved to play it.

Now, can you learn without comparison? Without marks — listen to all this — without being told that you’re not so good as him, without comparison — learn.

MZ: Sir, would you be more specific about what sort of comparison you’re talking about, because a great deal of learning does involve, in the knowledge sense, comparison.

K: Wait, mechanical knowledge — he asked. Gregory asked, what is the difference between watching that man eating so well, so carefully, so noiselessly, so, you know, with ease, there was a certain sense of beauty about it. What is the difference between that person and the person who is compared — aren’t you comparing. I made that very clear.

Q: But if you’re teaching someone yoga, and they can’t do a particular position, and someone can, and you say, ‘Look, you see how they’ve got that position.’

K: That’s not comparison.

Q: Showing.

K: That’s showing, factual showing.

MZ: And if…

K: Wait, I must — this is important, this is where we get — Mr Fowler does yoga. I watch him. And he doesn’t say to me, ‘Do what I do,’ that would be stupid, forgive me if I say — stupid on his part. He says, ‘Now can you do this,’ he helps me to do it. He doesn’t say ‘Copy me.’ He says, ‘Do it. See how much you can do.’ He helps me. In that there is no comparison, whatever. But if I say to myself, ‘By Jove, that person is much better than I am,’ then it begins.

So I said, are you learning? From books, which obviously you are, must be, otherwise you wouldn’t be here. And are you learning from listening? Now, I say to you — listen to this — I say to you, we are living in a community where we are responsible for everything. You understand? Now, what do you learn from that?

Q: I don’t understand exactly what you mean by the word ‘responsible’.

K: I’ll tell you — very simple. It is a community, isn’t it? Community at Brockwood, which means a lot of people living together, communicating together, concerned with the same thing together, about the same thing together, all that is implied in the word ‘community’. Right? We are a small community. And he says, too, that we are responsible. Responsibility means to respond — listen to this — to respond adequately to each other.

Q: Adequately?

K: Adequately, that means, if I am selfish, if I am arrogant, I do not respond adequately to him. Then I place myself, I give to myself more importance than to him. You follow? I mean by community and responsibility, and responsibility means adequate response to every challenge in that community. Right? Now, you listen to that statement, and what do you learn from it? What were you learning from it? Do you understand — not from the books but from the words, by listening to those words, you are responsible, as you live in a community. As you’re responsible when you live in a big community, taxes, putting the lights out, not too much noise with the radio and so on and so on — you’re responsible. Now, do you learn that, are you learning that here? Come on, sirs. That is being responsible, because it’s very important to learn that, very important to learn what it means to be responsible.

Look, I get up and talk on platforms all over the world, with thousands of people, as I’m going to do when I go to Bombay, they’ll be eight thousand people listening. I am responsible to them and to myself, what I say. I must be. Responsibility is not on the part of the listener but on the part of the speaker, how he wants to tell and so on and so on and so on. So responsibility in life is tremendously important. Right? Are you learning that here?

Q: When you say learning, you mean becoming responsible?

K: No, are you learning responsibility?

Q: What does it mean to learn responsibility?

K: Part of the responsibility means, not forming a small group in a community. Isn’t it? A small group of your own little friends and not… So group formation in a small community means an irresponsible action. Are you learning that? Not that you mustn’t have your own friends, but to exclude everybody. You understand? I wonder, if you’re getting all this.

Are you learning here responsibility, listening to that word, understanding what that word means, and seeing if you are also of the same agreement — no — of the same, feel the same about that word and the feeling behind that word. Are you learning that? Is it too much, all this? Are you going to sleep? Or are you saying, ‘Well, I’ll have my own friends, I’ll form a little group, and I’ll live within the community for two years and when I leave I forget them and they forget me, and I’m out.’ And then you live irresponsibly in a much bigger community. And that’s what’s happening in the world. I wonder if you get all this.

And are you learning by observing?

Q: If a person really learns something then they don’t really forget it, like you talking about responsibility here. If they learn true responsibility, they wouldn’t say when they leave here…

K: That’s just it, sir, if you don’t learn it here, you won’t learn it outside. I know a man who has married five times — poor chap used to pay five alimonies. And would you call that man responsible?

MZ: Very, if he pays five different women! (laughter)

K: Of course, poor chap, he is burdened, he has responsibility. (laughs)

Q: I wouldn’t say he’s responsible, though, because after the first one, he knows.

Q: Responsible…

K: I explained, sir. Are you learning by observing? You understand, sir? By observing, listening and learning from books, gives you an astonishing sense of — astonishing sensitivity. You become very attentive, not artificially. You understand? You become attentive to that picture, you see immediately if that picture is in line. You follow? What it is. You become so watchful.

Q: Sir, when you talk of reading poetry and things which is all the product of someone’s imagination and memory, do you mean finding your own way…

K: No, sir, no, sir, that’s a different matter. Please, sir, don’t bring that in now. We are talking, we are asking if you’re learning from observing. The other night, an osteopath — you know what an osteopath is? — a good osteopath, he was saying, people have a great deal of trouble with their backs because they sit wrongly, they slump over. And he showed a pianist playing like this, and poor person, he said, had such back trouble she could hardly play the piano any more. So he helped her to sit properly. And he said, when you cross your legs, one leg over the other, you stop circulation in the other leg. Sorry, I’m not pointing to you! (laughter) And he said, sit with the ankles crossed, don’t sit with legs one on the top of the other, because, look, when you sit like that you are stopping circulation. And I said, I looked at it, listened to it very carefully, because I’m interested in all that kind of stuff, and I said to myself, ‘Do I sit like that?’ Do I ever sit like that? And I find I never have. Do you know why? I don’t want to spoil my trousers! (laughter) You understand? That’s all. But I never thought I was going to stop the circulation.

Q: Sir…

K: Listen, listen. So by observing I’ve learnt a tremendous lot, which I did without even observing, because I’m very careful about my clothes, because I want to be neat. You follow? So do you observe and learn? Come on, sir, I’m talking all the time. Do you observe how you eat, how you hold a knife and a fork? Do you? Yes? (laughs)

Q: Yes.

K: You’re English, aren’t you?

Q: Yes. (laughter)

K: Have you observed? (laughter) What happens? Observe it, next time, very carefully, and you’ll learn. Observe very carefully the words people use, slang, the way they mouth their words — watch, watch and you will learn tremendously.

You know, I used to go to a monastery — not used to go — I was once invited to a monastery, because they thought I was a super-monk! And I am in that sense, a super-monk! (laughter) So they invited me. I went there and I did everything they did, getting up at 5.30, meditation for an hour, breakfast, getting ready, washing the dishes, listening to some professor talking about something or other. Then an hour meditation, food, getting the food, washing dishes. Then absolute silence from then on till the next morning, never talk to anybody, which was good for myself, anyhow. And I watched them all. And I saw they were all imitating, conforming to that pattern which they thought would lead to God, controlling themselves, their anger — they would be annoyed if somebody did something, but immediately withdrawing — you follow? So it went on day after day, day after day for a week. And of course that monastery broke up and other things break up. So by watching you learn a tremendous lot.

Q: If you’re watching, if I’m listening to you, and you’re talking to me, to listen, to be attentive to that outside me, and then I have to be attentive also to that within me. But it becomes another fragment.

K: No, sir. Listen, sir. It doesn’t, you watch, I’ll show it to you. I observe. First I observe. You understand? I observe what is happening round me. Right?

Q: Can we use listening?

K: I’m observing, listen. I am observing, how they sit, how they talk, how they eat, what they say, and how they behave — I’m watching. Then I say to myself, am I also like that? You follow? And I say, yes, I’m also like that, or I’m not like that. Then I begin to investigate what is happening inside, by watching from outside. If I do not watch outside, I have no criterion by which I can say, to judge, to look. Then by looking at myself, then I say am I looking at myself with a pattern of a culture, or am I looking at myself as exactly as it is? Am I looking at myself from a prejudice, thinking I’m an awfully great man, or I’m, oh, tremendously wise, or just look what actually is going on. You follow?

So by observing what is going on around me, then I observe myself. If I don’t observe at all, what standard have I to look at myself. You understand this?

Q: But there’s times when it seems it’s necessary to…

K: Wait, wait, sir, listen. First I look at you all and I see how you behave, how you think, how you act, how you look. And then I look at myself. And I say, perhaps I’m like that. Do I want to be different, or is there a sense of superiority in wanting me to be different? You are following all this? Or inferiority, feeling, oh, I’m nobody but I must be like that. Or do I want to imitate. So where I do not want to imitate, to conform, copy, then I can look at myself and see exactly what is. And I can go beyond that and all the rest of it. That’s much more complex, we won’t go into that. That is, to observe myself without the observer. That’s what we were discussing the other weekend, which he wanted to discuss the other day. That to observe without the culture, the conditioning, the opinions, judgements, conclusions which is made up of me, the observer — to observe myself without all that is to see exactly what is going on. That is very precise, it’s a precision, not just sloppy work.

Are you learning that way, here? If you’re not, why not? Because that is part, that is education. Education is to learn, from books, from listening, from hearing. And that is total education. What time is it?

Q: Quarter to five.

K: Basta. Basta means, in Italian, enough.