K School Discussion 5, Brockwood Park, 17 June 1979

Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?

(Pause)

All right? You have nothing to suggest, so I will go on, shall I? What do you think is right action? When you ask that question each one will offer his own opinions, according to his own experience, prejudice, opinion, and say, ‘This is the right action.’ If you asked a Catholic, a Protestant, a Buddhist and so on, they have their own point of view. Right? Have you a point of view about this, about this question, what is right action? Not only in a particular incident, but what is right action under all circumstances? Is there such thing? Or, varying according to circumstances, pressures, and one’s own inclination and desires, you act. So, such actions bring about contradictory activities. Right? Of course. Clear? That is clear. Now I am asking, we are asking, is there an action — carefully think it out with me — is there an action that doesn’t contradict, that doesn’t vary according to circumstances, according to a particular demand or what you wish to do — is there an action that is whole? Not broken up — business action, family action, communal action — right? — personal action — those are all broken up, aren’t they? Now we are asking: is there an action which is not broken up, which is not fragmented, which is whole? Right? Have you understood the question? Is there such an action? Or all our life, during all our life, it is always broken up, sometimes very pleasant, other times not — regret, guilty, miserable, contradictory, which we all know. Right? So what shall we do to find out? Come on, sir, don’t you want to find out an action that doesn’t create a problem? Either for yourself or for the person with whom you happen to be either a friend, intimate, husband, wife, boy and girl, so that in your action there is no… it doesn’t create a problem which you have to solve, fight. You follow?

So can we live a life which has no problem whatsoever? Come on, Shankar. Because we are always, from the moment we are born, perhaps, until about five or six, we have all the time problems, until we die. Haven’t you noticed it? Why do we live that way? There are physical problems — one is ill, one has heart trouble, liver trouble, or one has cancer. And why do we make of it into a problem? You understand my question? Go with me, discuss it with me, have a dialogue with me. Suppose I have cancer. Why do I make a problem of it? I have got cancer, the doctor tells me, and that it must be operated, that I have a few days to live or a few years to live, and I get so agitated, I am so frightened, and that fear, agitation, the responsibility which I have undertaken, and the ending of that responsibility, the attachment to my family, to my daughter, to my wife, to my son and so on and so on, and I make this whole issue of cancer into a tremendous problem. You understand? Why? Which is, why do we make life into such a terrible affair, with so many difficulties, so many problems? Why?

Go on. Please, I am talking so that you are also, in listening, you are also investigating with me. You are not just sitting there and just listen to a lot of words which have no… then it will have no meaning, but if we are together going into this. Right? Because we are concerned with your life — at least the speaker is, for the moment. I am really concerned why you make of life into a problem. I have got a cancer. Yes, I have got cancer — right? — I have got to be operated, go through a lot of pain. All right. But what takes place? Go on, think it out with me. What takes place? I’ve got cancer. I haven’t got it but I am saying, suppose. Suppose I have cancer. Why am I frightened about it? Go on, answer me. Why am I frightened?

Questioner: Because you don’t want to die?

K: Is it the pain? Is it that I am going to have a lot of pain and therefore I don’t want pain and I am frightened? Right? Which is what? Watch it carefully. The doctor tells me I have cancer. I think about it. By thinking about it I create a future which might give me pain. But if I said, ‘All right, I have got a cancer. I will go through it, whatever the pain, whatever what happens’ — but instinctively, very quickly my reaction is, ‘Oh Lord, what I am I going to… what is going to happen?’ You understand? So, one finds that fear arises when you are not actually facing the fact. We went into that the other day — the fact and the non-fact — do you remember? The non-fact is the future: I might have pain, I might die. But the fact is I have got this disease. To remain with it, to say, ‘Yes, I have got it’ — can you do that? Can we ever do that? That is, only face, be with what is happening, and not what should happen or what might happen. Do you understand? Will you do it? Go on. Will you do it? Because you see, we create problems — first we create them, then we are anxious to solve them — right? — and the solution may be wrong and we get frightened about it. So, we are in a constant state of anxiety, constant assuming that there might be difficulty, and so on. Of course there are going to be difficulties, but one will meet them as they arise. You are following all this? So I am asking you: why do we have problems, and why are we so broken up in our activities that we can never find an action that is complete, whole? You understand my question? You have understood my question? What do you say to that?

Q: Well, problems keep you busy.

K: Keep you busy.

Q: Yes.

K: Problems keep you occupied — is that it?

Q: Yes.

K: Why do you want to be occupied? Think it out carefully, don’t just throw out a word. Why is your mind wanting to be occupied, with what might happen, what is happening, and so on and so on — occupied — why? Have you noticed your minds are occupied all the time; there isn’t a moment when it is quiet, when it is unoccupied? Have you? Now I am asking you: why is it occupied? One has to go to… at the end of the holidays… I mean, term, one has to go home, or whatever one does. Why is the mind occupied what you will do when you get back? One problem — occupied. Or occupied with your mathematics, with your exams, with what people might say, with your looks, all the rest of it — it is occupied — why? It is the same with the young and with the old. Right? Completely occupied. Occupation is not planning, is it? One has to go Switzerland or America or to India; I plan. Go to the… get a ticket; I plan. That is not occupation. Right? So what do we mean by being occupied? Go on. I don’t want to talk all the time. This is a dialogue. Play the game. The ball is in your court so answer it, take it, reply. Why is your mind occupied?

Q: It’s worrying about things that might happen tomorrow.

K: Worrying about things that might happen.

Q: Or things that have happened.

K: That have happened. That is the past, occupied with the past incidents, happenings, or occupied with the future happenings, and so on. Why? We said occupied — right? — whether the past or the future. Why is it occupied? Why is the mind filled with all this?

Q: It is fear to face it when it occurs.

K: Is that it?

Q: I think it is because our minds are sort of… we don’t want to be still in case we find out that it’s empty and we don’t know what’s in the emptiness.

K: You mean, are you saying, that if you are not occupied you get frightened?

Q: Well, we don’t know what to expect, I guess.

K: I see. You don’t know the state of the mind… a state of a mind that is not occupied. Is that it? All right, don’t bother about that, but I am asking: why are you occupied? You understand my question? Not the state of a… not the quality of a mind that is not occupied. Put that aside. That’s just an idea, because it isn’t actual. Right? Now, why is the mind occupied?

Q: It is partly just habit.

K: Is it habit?

Q: Also we always think we have to be doing something.

K: Yes. That is, your culture, your education, your environment says: do something, don’t be quiet. Right? Is that it? Go on. Inquire into it.

Q: But also sometimes we want to be quiet and we don’t manage to, so…

K: Now, wait, you want to be quiet and perhaps manage it somehow. Then your occupation will be: ‘I have been quiet and I must be quiet. That was a nice state when I was not occupied, now I…’ and that quiet state becomes the occupation. You are following? That’s what generally people do when they talk about meditation; they are occupied with meditation — you follow? — practice, sitting quietly, concentrating, doing. They are not active physically, but something is happening inside. You are following all this? So they are all occupied. I am asking you — please go into it carefully — why is your mind occupied? You understand? The movement of occupation. There is emptiness and something comes into it, occupies it. A house is empty and you occupy it. You buy it and you put your furniture; you occupy it, you inhabit it, you dwell in it. Go on, please answer me. Think it out. Exercise your brain. Why are you occupied?

Q: Well, mostly because you want to. You want to be occupied.

K: Why?

Q: It gives you a good feeling that you are doing something.

K: So, you are saying, doing something is…

Q: It gives you the feeling you are not wasting your time or…

K: I used to know a friend. He became a Catholic and they gave him from morning until night something to occupy himself with. You understand? Not go to church, but think about Ave Maria. I won’t go into all that. Think about all that — repeat, repeat, repeat, be occupied, think about Jesus, think about the mass, think about it all day. Poor chap! Don’t you know? Aren’t you doing the same? Don’t you know people who are occupied with politics, planning, seeking power, position, what to do, how to govern the country, reduce inflation, and so on and on and on — they are occupied. You are not answering my question. Why are you, is your mind — occupied with what? Would you be occupied if you want to buy a dress, about it? A dress. Would your mind be saying, ‘Well, I am going to buy this, that,’ and all day be occupied with it? That would be rather silly. Right? But if somebody hurt you — not physically — inwardly, psychologically — would you be occupied with that? That means the hurt has occupied your mind. Right? Like a house… like a man entering into a house and occupying it. What is the answer? Why is your mind occupied? Don’t go to sleep. You have to find an answer because it is a problem in life.

Q: There is the idea that thinking will solve things.

K: All right, let me put it differently. Is your mind full of thought? Is your mind thinking all the time? I must do this, I shouldn’t do that, I should have said that, this is right, I am not so beautiful as you — you follow? — thinking, thinking, thinking, about your… if you have a job you think about your job, your career — you know? — all the time thinking. Is that what you are saying? Now, is it possible — listen quietly, find out — is it possible to have a mind that is not thinking all the time? You think when it is necessary, and not think otherwise. Go on, sirs. This is very important for you to find out, for all of us, young or old. Because then — I mustn’t say what happens then, (laughs) because then that becomes reward and punishment — right? — like a carrot for a donkey. Go on.

Q: But, I mean, the purpose of the mind… I mean, one of the purposes of the mind is to think. I mean, one of the main purposes of the mind is to think, so…

K: Why do you say that? You say one of the purposes of the mind is to think. And also isn’t one of the purposes of the mind not to think?

Q: I mean, I think if one… (inaudible) …I don’t think that’s enough.

K: Look, look, Ravi — ah, you’ve had a haircut. (Laughter). Look, Ravi, if you are thinking all the time it becomes mechanical, doesn’t it? You may think about something non-mechanical. By thinking about it, it becomes mechanical. Right? No, this is very important to find out. Please go into it carefully. If the mind is occupied and it has become a habit, that occupation becomes mechanical. Whether he is a scientist or a politician or a priest or a philosopher or a just an ordinary person — right? — being occupied with something all the time makes the mind mechanical. Right? Do you see that? Not see it as an idea, but actual fact. If I keep a motor running, running, running all day and all night, it is finished, it wears itself out. Right?

Q: But you might think about the things in a different way each time, which is not mechanical.

K: I said, if you think about it and be occupied with it then it becomes mechanical. I think about going to the dentist — planning, going, sitting in the chair and having beastly pain. It is so. Right? But why is my mind occupied with it?

Q: Because you don’t want it.

K: Because you don’t want pain? But the tooth hurts. No, you are not… Go into it, sir, you are not going… you are answering superficially. You are not delving, going deeply into the question — why a mind is occupied, and being occupied about anything must inevitably reduce itself into a mechanical routine, repetition. You understand?

Q: Is it possible that when your mind doesn’t… that you don’t want to be in a state when you are not thinking anything, you want to be occupied with something, you are scared of, say, silence? You are scared of a time when…

K: Yes. Are you saying, Ravi, that if you are not occupied you are frightened?

Q: Yes.

K: Is that so?

Q: No, I am not saying… I’m trying… Is it possible that it’s like that?

K: Have you tried, Ravi?

Q: No, I have not.

K: Try it. Do it now. Now, now. Don’t do it tomorrow or when you get to your room, do it now. Find out as you are looking… as you are sitting there, why is your mind occupied, and are you frightened if it is not occupied? Which means what? If you are frightened there are several things implied in it. Breaking a habit and not knowing what will happen next. Right? You have got used to a certain pattern of thinking and the mind says, ‘I have been trained, educated, conditioned to function in patterns, in grooves.’ Right? Right? One has been educated as a doctor, a surgeon, and you are occupied with that. And a surgeon who is not occupied says, ‘What am I to do?’ You follow? So, that. Or the mind itself has become so mechanical — mechanical in the sense like a machine — so it daren’t stop being occupied, thinking. Now, which is it? Which is what is happening to you? Find out. Go on, Ravi, think it out carefully. Don’t imagine, see how your mind is occupied with whatever it is and see how mechanical it has become in the occupation, and also see the consequences of that, which is, the brain constantly occupied, soon wears out — occupied with a problem. I know a person, he was hurt psychologically when he was quite young and he has carried that hurt, and he is now 70. He is carrying it with him and he is occupied with that hurt. You are following all this? Are you carrying the burden of occupation? And can you end it?

Q: It seems that the mind is so mechanical, as you said, that it doesn’t want to stop being occupied, and so…

K: All right. We have observed what is occupation, mechanical, all the rest of it — we have gone into it. Now, the next step is: see if you can find out whether it can end.

Q: Krishnaji, it seems like sometimes you can do that when there is no distraction. Sometimes you can do that when there is no distraction, when you can only look at that, but then when something, you know, happens or something then you…

K: When something happens, examine it, watch it, think about it, look at it, but why carry it on? You are not meeting this. You see, you are already, being very young, you are already old. Have you noticed that? Not in body but your mind, you are already old, because you are so occupied with something or other. A mind that is young, fresh, is free. No?

Q: When I am not particularly occupied with something, some consequences that are going to take place in the future or something that has happened in the past, when I’m just… my mind is still going on but let’s say, I am playing with, you know, trying to, you know, end that occupation. It seems that I get to a point where it may… something happens but there is always the… thoughts still pulls you back all the time. I mean, it may come in with a song, a word, a picture or something.

K: Quite, quite. You understand? If it is not occupied all the time, when there is some space then you can… there is something… you can look at life anew. You understand? There is some new action, new point of view, new observation, something new can take place, but if it’s all the time…

Q: But it seems that if ever… You see, there is that space. It is destroyed because right away, almost… you know, thought…

K: It cannot be destroyed. Once you see that occupation — I have explained it — is destructive, is dangerous, makes the mind dull, it is not pliable, it is not quick, it is not sensitive — if you see that — not verbally; actually — then the space is not something that happens occasionally. Right? You follow all this? Do you see the danger of this occupation, which inevitably is concerned with problems, problems? Problems being something which has not been solved. Right? I have quarrelled with you and it becomes a problem if I don’t end it. Right? So I come to you and say, ‘I am so sorry, I apologise for what I did, let’s forget it,’ it is finished. Right? Can we do that? That is, you have said something to me which is ugly and I have been hurt. And can I say, ‘I have been hurt, what do you mean by…’ — discuss — you follow? — talk it over. Finished. Not carry on. Will you do that? That means — watch it carefully — that means you are aware of your reactions. Right? You have said something rather in anger or brutally and it hurts, and see it hurts, and come to you and say, ‘You have said this, let’s talk it over and finish with it’ — you follow? — so that the hurt has no place in my mind. And will you do this? So that your mind is always fresh. Otherwise you are not young.

All right, let’s put it round the other way. We have problems. Right? Actually we have problems — physical problems: ‘Oh, I wish I…’ — you know, problems, physical problems; then inward, psychological problems. Psychological problems are based on relationship, aren’t they? Are you sure? You are following this? Right? One is married or one has friends and all that, and the relationship between two people creates a problem — as inevitably, always — however much they might say, ‘I love you,’ ‘I am this,’ you know, all that — but deeply it creates a problem. There are problems in relationship. Now, my question is: is it possible not to create problems in relationship? Go on, sir, this is your life. Don’t go to sleep. (Laughs) If you want rest because you can’t concentrate more than I would be… attentive for more than ten minutes, we will stop, but as it’s your life, you are going to find out why in relationship there are problems — sexual, you know the whole business of it. Don’t you know all about it or am I telling you something you don’t know? You know about it, don’t you? Yes, sir. So, Ravi, are you thinking about something else? Obviously.

Why do people have, as you will have or you are having, problems in relationship? I love you, you don’t love me — that is one of the ordinary problems. The other problem is: you are bossing me and I am rather gentle, or I am bossing you and you don’t like it. Right? I am attached to you, I want you to be always with me and not go away from me and I hold on to you, and you don’t want to be held. You want freedom. Which is, freedom to look at somebody else and so on, so on, so on, and I get jealous, I get angry — you follow? — this whole problem arises. Now, can you have a relationship in which there is no problem whatsoever?

Q: Well, I suppose if you are thinking all the time about what you want and about yourself.

K: Which means what? That you are not self-centred. Is that what you are saying?

Q: Forget your opinions.

K: No. You forget your opinions. Will you do that? Don’t say anything that you don’t do, otherwise it just becomes ideas — you follow? — words. Words have no meaning by themselves. If you say: look, I am self-centred, and as long as I am self-centred, concerned about myself, my ambition, my looks, my desires, my way of looking at the world, my opinions, my judgments — as long as I am concerned with myself I will inevitably create problems in my relationship. Right? So, you see that. So will you be self-centred? Just watch it carefully. Suppose you are not self-centred and I am. I am your sister, your brother, your husband, your father. I am self-centred, you are not. Then what happens? You have to go… Are you inquiring? Good. What happens? You are not self-centred, another is self-centred, and you have this relationship. Watch it carefully. You marry a Catholic and you are not a Catholic. Immediately there is a problem. Of course, if you are mildly Catholic it is not much of a problem, but if you are a practising Catholic you want to bring up your children as Catholics and the father says, ‘No, sorry, I am not. I won’t have it.’ Problem. The father says, ‘I want my son to go to Eton,’ and somebody, the mother says, ‘I want him to go to Brockwood.’ I doubt it. And there is a problem. You follow? See what is happening in life. For God’s sake see it, because you are going to face this. And the older people have that. It is their burden. It’s a tragedy. It isn’t a thing that you just laugh about, it is tremendous drama, tragedy, misery.

So, as you said, as long as one is self-centred, that is — just watch it — as long as one is occupied with oneself, with one’s views, with one’s etc., etc., you invariably create a problem. Which means what? Are you following all this or am I leading, you are just following? That is, as long as one is self-centred there must be division. Right? You are self-centred, so am I. Immediately there is division. I might say to you, ‘I love you, we must be married, we must…’ but as long as I am self-centred, in spite of marriage, in spite of going to church and all the rest of it, there is division. Right? Can this division be bridged? Follow it carefully. That is, I am an Arab and you are a Jew. I am using those words without any derogatory… without any sense of insult. I am an Arab and you are a Jew. Immediately there is a division — right? — and so we are at each other’s throat. That thing goes right through life. Right? So can you, when you see this fact, can you in your life be not self-centred? Or say, ‘All right, I am self-centred, I am going to look at it, I am going to watch my reactions, I am going to see that they don’t interfere.’ You understand? Both of us must do this. You may do it, I may not do it. Then I create a problem for you. You understand? If we both do it we are walking together.

Q: But if I am not self-centred and someone else is how do I deal with them? If I am not self-centred and someone is, and say I am married to them or something, what do I do?

K: So what will you do? You are self-centred, I am not.

Q: Right. I mean…

K: What is our — no, first find out — what is our relationship? If I am a casual visitor, a stranger, it doesn’t matter, I don’t even pay attention to you. But if we have to live in the same house then how will you deal with me?

Q: Well, there is just so much I can do.

K: No, find out. Don’t say… Find out what you will do. You don’t… you are not self-centred. Your husband, your wife, your brother is self-centred. What is your responsibility? Because you are living in the same house. If you are stranger it is very simple, like two ships passing by at night, but if you are living in the same boat and the boat happens to be very small, and you are not self-centred and the other fellow is self-centred, what is your responsibility? This is life, isn’t it? What is your responsibility?

Q: Try and make him not self-centred.

K: Are you quite sure you are not self-centred?

Q: Oh, I didn’t say I was.

K: (Laughs) Ah, look, old boy, then it is merely verbal exchange. I am not interested in verbal exchange.

Q: Well, let me…

K: How will you deal with it? Go into it. Find out, if you are self-centred and I am not, and what is my responsibility towards you? Have I any?

Daphne, don’t go to sleep. By Jove, you cannot… Are you getting tired? It’s an hour. We have talked for an hour. If you are tired we will stop. No? You are not tired. You are really thinking, observing.

I am asking you: when they are married but inwardly separate they feel terribly responsible. Right? Don’t they? He goes out to earn money or she also goes out — you know, responsible — to have children, to see that the children… all that. But if one is not self-centred and the other is, what is the responsibility of the man or the woman who is not self-centred?

Q: Krishnaji, I wonder if that’s a wrong question, in that we all are self-centred. I wonder if that is the right question because it seems that all of us in this boat are self-centred.

K: So, I am asking, one… All right, if you are all self-centred then what shall we do? You are self-centred, your friend is self-centred, so everyone is more or less self-centred. One is less, one is more. What is your responsibility?

Q: Is there a great need for interest in other people, tolerance and understanding, even if you are self-centred?

K: Does my responsibility involve correcting him, showing him?

Q: You may be wrong too.

K: We all do, but something much more is demanded, isn’t it? I wonder if you are…

Q: I think your responsibility is in changing yourself first. Because you can’t really change other people. Your responsibility is in changing yourself.

K: You are beginning to change yourself. You say, ‘Well, I am self-centred.’ You see what is the nature of self-centeredness and you say, ‘All right…’ You are working at it. And the other fellow with whom you are living is not self… is totally unaware of it. What is your responsibility towards him?

Q: To show him.

K: First to tell him. Will he listen to you? So, he may not listen to you. Or he may say ‘You are a conceited arse. You think you are, but you actually are not.’ You follow, the relationship? So what will you do?

Q: You can try and find a way of telling him so he will listen.

K: Are you listening now? (Laughs) What will make another — oh no, I will put it much simpler — what will make you listen to what one is saying? Listen — not words, but go beyond the words, get the feeling of it. And what will make you listen to that, to what one is saying? Go on.

Q: Seeing the necessity of it.

K: Do you? Have you listened this morning? Say: why is your mind occupied? Have you listened? The mind that is occupied, which gradually becomes self-centred, creates a problem, and when there is a problem there is no relationship, in the deep sense of the word — you may hold hands and all the rest of it, but deep relationship, in that sense of complete communion. You understand? What will… So, have you listened to all that? Listened, which means that you have really received it completely, so that it’s part of you. So, how will I make you listen? It’s not a problem for me, but I am just asking you. I want you to listen. That’s why I talk. And you don’t listen. You listen partially and you say, ‘Yes, I understand it,’ but you don’t. You don’t listen completely. So, how am I going to make you listen?

Q: We can’t force people to listen.

K: But I want you to. What am I to do?

Q: Try to show us the danger of being stuck.

K: You want to tell Diane something and she won’t listen to you. Listen, in the sense as you want her to listen. What will you do? It is your responsibility to tell her something. No, careful. You think it out slowly. You will find an answer.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Yes, sir, why aren’t you listening? If you listen, the thing is very simple, isn’t it? It’s solved, finished. Why don’t you listen? And what will make you listen? What will make the man who is self-centred listen to a man who is not self-centred? If there is such a human being?

Q: I think that first of all there has to be a lot of care for the other person.

K: Have you listened this morning how important it is to have a mind that is not all the time occupied? Have you listened to that? Not how to be unoccupied, but have you listened to that one statement completely?

All right, let me put it differently. What will help you to be attentive? You are looking out of the window when I am talking, or you are thinking about something else and you are not paying attention — how am I to help you to be attentive? I want you to be attentive. I see it is very, very important to be attentive — not only to what I am saying, but to be attentive, to watch, to listen. To listen to your own reactions, to your own prejudices, to your own conceits and vanities and all the rest of it, just to listen to it. What will make you attentive, help you to be attentive?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Not quite, sir. Just wait, look at it carefully. You are looking out of the window and I am telling you something. So what is my responsibility? Go on, see, follow it through, you will find out. All right. You are looking out of the window. Right? I want you to be attentive, attentive to what you have happening. My responsibility is what?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: No, no, you haven’t thought it out carefully. Don’t say that. My responsibility is to help you to be attentive, to have the quality of attention.

Q: Sir, but first you look out of the window.

K: Wait, sir. Carefully watch it. My responsibility lies in helping you to be attentive — not about the book, not about what is being said, but the quality of attention. Right? So when you are looking out of the window I help you to look out of the window, that you see what you are looking at clearly, with attention. You follow? That’s my… because my concern is to help you to be attentive. The moment you have that quality it doesn’t matter; you will inevitably look at the book or listen to what is being said. You get it? So don’t make a conflict or have a conflict about being attentive. You understand what I am saying? I wish you would learn all this.

Q: I’m not sure. I mean, if you look outside the window then your attention is outside.

K: Yes.

Q: So you have attention.

K: That’s all. You have attention, and I help you to look out of the window. I say, ‘Look, very carefully, look at that rhododendron, the colours, the beauty of it, the shape of it, the quality of the leaf, the sunshine on the leaf — look at it completely.’ But my intention is to help you to have this quality of attention. If you have that then — you follow? — then when you pay attention… You’ve got this? Will you… So, wait a minute. (Laughs) Are you attentive now? Right? So we listen. How do you listen with attention, when there is… Sorry. When there is attention, how do you listen?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: No, sir, go slowly. When there is complete attention are you listening? Have you discovered something, any of you? You are inattentive — right? — and when you see what it means to be attentive — in which there is no conflict, because you are attending. Now, what is the state of listening when you are completely attentive?

Q: You’re devoting all your energy to whatever you are being attentive to.

K: Yes. You are giving your complete energy. Right? What happens then?

Q: You forget yourself for a moment. You’re not thinking about all your problems and all that.

K: No, you are not… Go into it carefully.

Q: It seems that you are listening to everything, not only…

K: I understand. I am asking something else: what is the state of your mind which is attentive and listening?

Q: It’s still.

K: Wait. For the moment your mind is attentive. Right? I am telling you, an occupied mind is mechanical and divisive. You understand, the word ‘divisive’. So, I am telling you that. How do you… in that state of attention how do you receive it? You understand? That is communication, isn’t it? Instantly you have understood it. Have you?

Q: That’s because there is no thought occupying… (inaudible)

K: That’s it. That’s what I want to get at. You’ve got it? Daphne, have you got it? That is, when you are completely attentive we have established between you and another a communication which is verbal and yet non-verbal. Which means you have really understood.

I say, for example — first you are attentive; now listen carefully — you are attentive and I say to you, ‘Nationalism is very destructive.’ Right? What happens? You are attentive. You are nationalistic. And somebody makes a statement that nationalism is most destructive. What has happened?

Q: It seems that one is free to listen to that.

K: You have listened. I said to you, you are attentive now, and when somebody makes a statement of that kind — which is true, because nationalism is dividing people, wars, all that, which is true — how do you… what happens to you?

Q: It seems that you may be nationalistic…

K: No, no, see what happens. You are nationalistic. What happens when you are attentive?

Q: You see the truth of that statement.

K: When you are attentive and you receive an actual statement which has logically… and so on, the truth, you drop your nationalism. It’s over, because — you understand? — you have given complete energy to it. I wonder if you understand this. Got it? If I say to you, ‘Career isn’t the only thing in life,’ and you are greatly attentive, in the sense we have explained it, what happens to the mind that is caught in that particular pattern of wanting a career?

Q: It becomes free. It becomes free of that particular desire.

K: That’s right. Go on, sir. Think it out. Observe the state of attention first and see in that attention what takes place. It is only when there is inattention, when there is no attention, you have problems. You got it? Do you understand this?

I think we ought to stop, shouldn’t we? Ravi is hungry. (Laughs) All right. Wait a minute, I will finish.

Have you learnt something this morning? Not from me; you have learnt by observing — right? — yourself. So, you are not being taught. So you have discovered something for yourself. Right? Right? Therefore, when you discover something for yourself you are not a second hand human being. Right? That’s all.

Shall we get up?