K School – Adults Discussion 5, Rishi Valley, 28 November 1977
Krishnamurti: If I may ask, why aren’t your wives here too — if you have wives? You have wives, haven’t you? Why aren’t they here, sir? It’s part of their home. Do you think they should be?
(Pause)
The other day I was talking to someone who knows India pretty well, politically, so-called various gurus, and it’s what is generally happening all over India. Very experienced; I’ll tell you his name presently. And I asked him a question and, if I may, I would like to ask you that question too. I will tell you what he said. But I don’t want to say… what he said till I have talked it over with you. Where are the rest of them? Aren’t they coming?
Questioner: I think some of them are down with the ‘flu.
K: Oh! I’m sorry. I asked him and so, if you don’t mind, I will ask you too. First, please listen to the question and not to your reactions to the question. I asked him if the Indian mind, which is rather a large and generalised mind, and probably wrong to put it that way, but does India as a whole — not the geographic, but the Indian mind — does it know love? So I would like to ask you the same question. Do you think India — you — know what love is? I know it’s rather an impudent question, and I hope you don’t think it as impudent or impertinent, but I think we ought to discuss that, very seriously. Shall we? Do you want to talk it over? Sir, what do you say? Yes? What do you say, sirs? Mr Venkatraman?
Q: Yes sir.
K: What do you think? And Mr Hamid, what do you think? Do you think India knows or aware or feels love? I mean by *love* — just let me a little put… because that word is so loaded and so misused — I mean by that word not only the sexual business, tenderness, care, great concern for others, taking infinite trouble over others or for one’s children, infinite trouble, and out of that, compassion. Do you think India — again, it was a large generalised word — do you think India knows such state of compassion?
(Pause)
Because I was very concerned about it because I’ve watched it for over forty years, fifty years and more; I’ve talked to a great many people. Mothers — you know? — the whole circus of it. And I’m asking you, if I may, if India has got that quality? That can be put into one simple word, with all its extraordinary complications — compassion.
(Pause)
No answer? You are very shy.
Q: I think the answer will be, ‘Yes,’ and, ‘No.’
K: You can’t have both, sir.
Q: It’s a fact. Because if you mean by love, that is, about which you have been talking, I would say, ‘No.’
K: I beg your pardon?
Q: If you mean love as you generally tell us what love should be or what is love, then I’m afraid the answer will be, ‘No.’
K: But…
Q: Because, if that be the case, then we won’t have this — you know? — that regional feeling or whatever it is. You know, I’m a Tamilian, you’re a Telugu. But if you just take the word *love*, then, of course, they do have love, without knowing what love is.
K: I would like to question that. Sir, I’m not the final word. I would like to question, I’d like to ask — seriously; this is not a flippant question or demands a flippant, casual answer — do you… have you gone into this question? Have you inquired what it means in our own lives, what it means to love? Is this too delicate a subject?
Q: It is too general a subject.
K: Beg your pardon.
Q: It is too general a subject. You can’t just make a statement: ‘Is India capable of love?’
K: I explained, madame… I explained very carefully. Love… You know, I’ve looked up in the dictionary — it’s a very good dictionary; we’ve been talking to Narayan; we should get it — in which it says the… the root of it, etymologically, in Sanskrit, *lubyati* — desire — and from that arises the whole question of the arousing of desire, both sexually and… Do you mind my talking about all this?
Q: No sir.
K: Are you sure? You won’t get shocked, or become puritanical or…? And also, it implies with most people in their relationship, man or woman, a great deal of possessiveness, domination by one or by the other, a sense of dependency, and so attachment, jealousy, and from jealousy, antagonism, hatred and all that. All that’s implied in the word *love* also, generally. ‘I love my wife, but she has run away from me — I hate her.’ (Laughs) Right? And also, love: in that is the word *lust*, and I exclude the word *passion*. Passion is something entirely different. I’ll explain what I mean. The word *passion* comes… it has its root in suffering. It comes from the word sorrow, the root of it. And if one is not beyond sorrow, passion is not possible. Right? I’m just stating… You may not say that’s all nonsense, but you have to find out. So putting all that into one word, which is a deep sense of compassion, does it exist in this country? Of course it exists sex — good God! — dominance, possessiveness, jealousy, antagonism and exclusion and all that is… that’s… I would never… I wouldn’t call that love. Right?
Q: Sir, when you ask does it exist in this country, that is in India, does it mean that it exists everywhere else?
K: Ah! Don’t ask such a question. You see, that’s an escape. Do you know what Mr Nehru was asked — I read it in the London Times — was asked was this country corrupt? ‘What are you going to do about it? He said, ‘Oh, we’re not so corrupt as another country.’ That’s not an answer.
Q: No, but I thought the real wording of the question, ‘Is their love in India?’ or…
K: I…
Q: …meant that everywhere else it…
K: Ah, not at all. I’ve just… I said only geographically; I said… (Laughs) I said does it exist? It may or may not exist in Europe or America or Russia. That’s not… If I was there, I would talk also, ‘Does it exist?’ Limited. So don’t compare. Forgive me, if I have not made that clear.
Q: No, limited love also includes one aspect of it. You have said jealousy, hatred…
K: No, no; I included tenderness, care.
Q: Love for a child, the mother… all over India, they do have love for the child.
K: I wonder.
Q: Love for the…
K: I wonder. You… you make a statement, say, ‘Yes, it exists.’ I question it.
Q: Sir, can we ever answer back the question without relating it to ourselves?
K: I don’t want to press it too much. Later on, perhaps, as we proceed in our conversation (laughs); later on, I will bring it home. Right? But I want first to be clear what we are…
Q: Sir, in India, there are still lots of villages which are completely self-sufficient as to… starting from due south to the interior Himalayas; there are certain villages. I think there, where they have complete prosperity, they are completely… they don’t depend on the government for help and other things, there is a lot of scope for the love you are trying to ask.
K: No, I’m asking, sir… (Laughs) Forget Himalayas and all the rest of it, I’m asking you does it exist?
Mother cares for a child, looks after when she has a baby, infinite care. I’ve done a great deal of… I haven’t… but… I’ve looked after babies, getting up at 2 o’clock, 4 o’clock, all the rest… changing diapers. There is infinite care when there is a baby. As it grows up — two, five — that care gradually disappears. Send him off to school or he runs off with other boys, and there is not that sustained care right through life. Right?
Q: Care in the physical sense, you mean?
K: Ah, I’m talking… purely…
Q: (Inaudible) …but otherwise the care is there.
K: You say there is?
Q: Yes.
K: I question it, madame.
Q: I mean, the mother may not be there, giving… (inaudible) …providing… (inaudible) …immediately, but the care for the child is there much more in our country than, I think, anywhere else.
(Laughter)
K: I’m not… See, that’s the worst… worst of talking… I made it very clear…
Q: Yes sir.
K: …that we are not talking about England, America or France or Russia, any of the Chinese, European countries or American… I’m talking about India.
Q: In that case, I think a more relevant question would be: is the human mind capable of love? Not… (inaudible)
K: Oh no. I’m coming to that… I am coming to… I’m coming to that a little later; I want quite… (Laughs) You’re all avoiding my question. You’re all pretty smart people, aren’t you? You’ve not answered my question. Because I’m very serious about this, because when this person answered me he made a categorical statement. And that rather shook me a little bit. Because I… I’ve always… No, I won’t go into what I think, what I feel, what I’ve observed, but what do you think? Because if you… if a mother really cared for her child, that care would extend widely, wouldn’t it? That means the right kind of education, the right kind of occupation, no killing, army. Sorry! (Laughs) The lady… (inaudible)
(Laughter)
It would be a totally different kind of world, wouldn’t it? The mother and the father really, deeply are concerned with their child. Right? It’s not. That’s one factor. The other factor is: in this country where there is over-population, great unemployment, and the enormous sense of poverty which is irrevocable, apparently, and totally depressing. From that observation, how it has come about, and social reform, social work and all that, is not love. It may be fashionable this year; next year, you say, ‘Well, sorry, I’m doing something else,’ and so on, so on. So when you look around, observe, (inaudible) village or these villages or Madanapalle or extend it further in India: how have human beings supported this? Right? Both those who consider themselves educated, good jobs. You follow? I am asking you, is there love in this country? I said *this* country, from the beginning.
Q: The answer may be it is not due to lack of love but… ignorance.
K: What?
Q: Most of…
K: Love transcends ignorance. Ignorance has nothing to do with love. You mean culture.
Q: Yes.
K: Is culture love?
Q: No.
K: No. Is ignorance… if you’re free of ignorance, does it bring you love? Do you have love?
Q: A mother may be… may not be in a position to decide what is the right type of education for the child, merely because of ignorance, in the circumstances she lives in.
K: By Golly! How you are defending.
(Laughter)
Therefore, you must be guilty. (Laughs)
(Laughter)
Q: No sir. We are all victims of circumstances.
K: I’m coming home presently, to Rishi Valley, because it’s very important, this — please… — very, very important educationally, in our relationship and all the rest of it. First, I want to observe from the outside and come home. You haven’t answered my question. You’re defending — that’s a different point. I’m not attacking. Please believe me, I’m not attacking. I want to know.
This is a really very serious question. What do you say, sirs? Sir, what do you say Mr Thomas? Don’t duck your… (Laughs)
(Pause)
Mr Rajesh?
Rajesh Dalal: Sir, totally, I do not think there is love. There is no love. Where there is no passionate answers.
K: Look sir, we are not arguing, are we? That doesn’t lead anywhere. We are not taking two sides… I want to find out. I really want to find out, because I have talked about this to many, many people. To gurus, to… I’ll tell you at the end what I feel, but I want to know what you all think. He says, ‘There is no love. There is no passion.’ Apart from lust. Right sir?
RD: Yes sir.
K: Right. Why do you say that, sir?
RD: See, for instance, we go on complaining and grumbling about so many things, not only at one… (inaudible) … all levels. And there are very few who really say, ‘Why is it so?’ and to transform, to change it in them. We go on putting it off, blaming it on other people, or finding explanations, ideas, answers.
K: Or would you say, sir — not that the rest of the world doesn’t — Indians are apt to live in speculation, in theories, in some conclusion which is totally irrelevant — you know? — philosophically, religiously; it’s somewhere up there. And therefore, they have never — I’m just opening it up — they’ve never questioned, they’ve never gone into this, never said, ‘Let’s find out, for God’s sake.’ They have got plenty of devotion. Devotion is fundamentally selfish. May I duck my head, after? And all the sentiment and… all that, I don’t call that love at all. It just leads to a great deal of hypocrisy, all that. So I’m asking you…
(Pause)
No sirs, tell me. You have lived in India, you have watched the country go through various phases, under the British, freedom, Gandhiji, Vinoba Bhave — you follow? — wave after wave of various theories, speculations, and so on, so on, so on. Started from Shankara, down to the present age. Right? Right? So, I’m asking you…
Mr Hamid? Mr Thomas hasn’t answered, you see? I’m coming back to him a little later. He must have thought about this. You must have thought about it, you must have…
Q: Sir, do you mean that the Indian culture stands in the way of love and…?
K: Indian culture…?
Q: Stands in the way of love?
K: Yes sir. I won’t offer my opinion yet. Obviously! I also question if we have a culture. To culture… like a plant that’s cultured grows, explodes, changes, breaks out. The word *culture*… obviously, the root meaning is to cultivate; cultivate implying growth, change, producing new fruit — you follow? — the whole thing. Is there culture in India? I know the Indians are very proud of it. I discussed this with Kumaraswamy once. Our friend — you know? — from Boston.
Q: Yes, Ananda Kumaraswamy.
K: That’s right. Oh, he was tremendously… ‘Indian culture…’ He said, ‘For God’s sake, Tagore, or all the big ones, they say, ‘Indian culture,’ I say, ‘What…?” Right? So I’m asking you, has India culture?
(Pause)
Well sir? You may say that’s too narrow a sense, but we must begin with the root meaning of it, not just invent as we go along, anything. Have all the gurus, the leaders…? Sir, sir, I’m questioning. I have found the answer for myself. But I want… I’m putting this question before you, because you are educators; we are starting from this… since Narayan is here, something totally new. Right? Right sir? Narayan? What? What do you say? We are starting anew, that’s all I’m saying.
Giddu Narayan: We are.
K: Free. There is no dictator here, no… we’re all working together, bringing a different kind of human mind. At least, I hope so. So…
Q: Sir, if you look round what is happening in this country today, there is a lot of hypocrisy.
K: Yes sir.
Q: Absolutely no consideration for the other person.
K: Yes sir.
Q: The government…
K: Oh…!
Q: …the leaders, the bureaucrats, everybody terribly callous. Sir, not very far from here, just now, about 20,000 people have died because of a cyclone.
K: I know.
Q: And many foreign governments and the different state governments, many people have been sending lakhs and crores of rupees to help them, but all the people in the country know that very little of that…
K: Goes to…
Q: …reaches the poor man who is dying.
K: Sir, we know all this, sir. Don’t tell me.
Q: It’s the bureaucrats, the politicians, the leaders.
K: Sir, and all…
Q: They make money when there’s a calamity like this.
K: …all the Delhi big people will take aeroplanes, come and meet people. I’ve been through… Sir, I have been…
Q: Sir, our students have been talking to me about sending some contribution to them and they said, ‘Don’t send it to the government, send it to somebody, if you know there, who will really help the poor people, the people who are dying.’ That’s what our students told me, yesterday.
K: Yes sir, I’m asking you: has India love, has India culture? I know we say we are 5,000 years old or 10,000 years old, Buddha was born here and — you know? — we are the most extraordinary brains — I know all that; I have heard it umpteen times. So I’m asking you, gentlemen…
Q: There isn’t the culture, in the sense which he explained just now, but it has traditions, very strong traditions.
K: Ah wait, wait! Is tradition culture?
Q: No sir.
K: Is tradition love?
Q: No.
K: Therefore, I’m asking you, sir…
Q: Sir, increase in population, as you said, is one of the main factors in decline of culture, but is love dependent on the economic factor?
K: It has… Love is not dependent on culture. Is it?
Q: No, the increase in population, the culture, as well as the economy…
K: I know, sir. I can… I’ve… Sir, economy… I’ve… Sir, I’m not a fool; I’ve talked to people; they have talked to me. The gurus have come to see me — some of the top ones — and I question… I look at them, I say, ‘These gurus, have they love?’ You understand, sir? Go on; answer me, sir. You…
Q: Sir, is love dependent on the economic factor?
K: Is it? Then it’s a commodity, to be bought and sold. That’s what the prostitutes do. Right? Do you call that love? For God’s sake, what…?
Q: Do you mean spontaneous action, by love?
K: I don’t know. I know what I’m… I’m asking you. You have not… Look sir, you have come [from] different parts of India, you have see all what’s happening in this country: the politics, the political leaders, Gandhiji, Vinoba Bhave — follow them all. You know… you’ve lived long enough to see them all. And poverty… — I can’t… well, never mind — all that’s going on. I ask you, as an observer — if you’re an observer, and also, if you are… as you are an Indian — is there such love?
Q: No sir.
K: No, don’t… Don’t withdraw it afterwards, sir. (Laughs)
Q: Sir, if there is even a speck of love, can the answer be, ‘No’?
K: What? Even if there is a speck of love?
Q: Even if… We have about sixty crores of people…
K: I don’t…
Q: …even if there is one person who has love, compassion, can the answer be no?
K: Can…?
GN: Can the answer be, ‘No’? If there is one person, if there is a speck of love, can the answer be, ‘No’?
K: I don’t understand what you are saying.
GN: What he says is, if he feels there is a speck of love somewhere, can he give you an answer and say, ‘No, there is no love’?
K: We are not talking in absolute sense, are we? Is it… are you…? Sir, power is evil. And absolute power is absolute evil. Right? You must have heard that — I don’t know which gentleman said this. And I thought last night, I was telling Achyut Patwardhan, ‘Secrecy is evil. Absolute secrecy is absolute evil.’ Now, we are not talking in absolutes, but as a human being, I ask myself, ‘Has this country love?’ You give me all the kinds of explanations: political, this, that, over-population… And I can love a human… I can love without… whether I’m poor or rich, if there is that thing. That thing doesn’t depend on… it doesn’t depend on anything. Because my wife may be beautiful, and therefore I love her. It’s… That’s all just pride, possession… I can’t go into all… It’s not worth going into. I’m just asking you. All right, if you don’t answer me, I’ll bring it home. Right? May I? May I?
Q: Yes.
K: Bring it home in the sense… (laughs) here, you. Have you got it? And if you say, ‘Well, what is it your business?’ that’s quite right? If you say that, I’ve nothing to say. But, as human beings talking over their human problems, as we have been doing, I think it is not… it is forgivable if I can say, ‘Have you… have you got that sense of… (inaudible)?’
(Pause)
You see, sir — I won’t pursue that line; I’ll go… I’ll attack it from another way — do you live in speculation, in conclusions, in theories, *what should be*, ‘India must be this,’ and, ‘I should be that,’ and…? Do you live that way? Would you answer me, sir? (Laughs) Am I coming too close?
(Pause)
All right, if you won’t answer me that way, we’ll attack the other way (laughs), which is: do you have traditions? Do you live in traditions? (Laughs) You don’t… Please, forgive me, I’m rather serious about all these matters. Always been my life, and I just want to see if I am meeting serious people.
Two years ago, I met a lawyer. Very smartly dressed in European clothes, beautifully cut trousers, coat made in England, I’m sure of it, and very well-dressed. Brahman — you know? — all that. And a week later, he comes to see me, and I could hardly recognise him because he had grown whiskers and stubs and dirty, unwashed. I said, ‘What…? Somebody…? What’s happened to you?’ He said, ‘I’ve taken a vow to go to some…’ — what is it?
Q: Sabarimala.
K: That’s it. Totally no relation to what he was… and his God or what his… filthy gods. No relation. Is that the way you live? If I may ask?
Q: Most of the Indians live that way, sir.
K: What?
Q: Most of the Indians live in tradition, even though they may be telling that they listen to you…
K: Ah, not to me; I mean, just pass that…
Q: But even there, they are proud of their own traditions and heritage and…
K: And so, I am asking you, sir, do you do that?
Q: No sir, I don’t.
K: Ah… Please, I’m very… When I use the word *tradition*, see what’s implied in it, sir. Not just going to rituals and repeating some useless words and all the rest of it — I don’t mean that. *Tradition*. The meaning of that word, root meaning, is *stare*, to stand. To stand on something, not move. *Tradare* is to hand… — you know; I don’t have to tell you all this — which is to hand over from the… father to son, to son, to son; all that is implied in that word. Which means… I mean, you go to Rome and you see the cardinals, the Pope and the whole circus of it, and they are following a tremendous tradition; beautiful cloaks and all the rest of it — and here, too, probably, Shankara and all those people have their own, particular form of tradition — are you… are we living here, in Rishi Valley, like that?
(Pause)
Won’t somebody answer me? (Laughs)
Q: Sir, I don’t know how to break away from tradition. I know that I am very traditional.
K: Good. Thank God; somebody who says, ‘I am.’ Doesn’t…
Q: How to…?
K: Wait sir. Doesn’t beat about the bush. Do you really want to know sir?
Q: Yes.
K: Will you do it?
Q: I don’t know.
K: Ah! (Laughs)
Q: That’s what I said…
K: Look, you don’t know, but somebody says, ‘I’ll show you how to break it.’
Q: Ah, then I will do.
K: Which means what? That is, you have formed a habit, tradition is repetition, repetition, a tradition, a habit of rituals, sacred thread in India — you know? — the whole business of it. You mean to say you find it awfully difficult to break from it? Or you are placating?
Q: Is it just that?
K: No, I’m asking…
Q: Breaking the…?
K: You haven’t… Are you actually practising a tradition or placating wife, husband, mother, father; just saying, ‘For God’s sake, I’ll do what…’ but inwardly you say, ‘Oh! Out’? Which is it? Oh, for God… (Laughs)
(Pause)
Which is it, sir?
Q: I won’t say I’m fully traditional also.
K: Ah?
Q: I don’t know, sir. I’m not…
K: (Laughs) No sir.
(Laughter)
Poor chap, I’m sorry you are put in a corner; the rest are quiet, you see?
Q: Sir, you mean to say a person can be traditional outwardly and inwardly not be traditional? Because…
K: That’s what the Jesuits say, sir.
(Laughter)
How can I inwardly be free and outwardly follow something which is so absurdly meaningless? Either I do it because I want to placate my father, mother, my old mother, who says, ‘Please, do anything you like after I die, but as long as I am living, please…’ and you, out of affection, say, ‘All right, Mummy, I’ll do that.’ Haven’t you done…? Don’t you know all these things? So sir, because… I… You’re not facing the thing; I’m going to pull you to this. You’re not facing all this. Are we a traditional school? The whole educational system in India — I’m just saying in India; it doesn’t mean… (Laughs) God! — is geared to passing exams, getting a job — right? — not cultivating intelligence, not cultivating anything, but just this one blasted thing. Right? Right sirs? Would you agree to that? Are we… is this what we want here? Not that they shouldn’t pass exams, get a job, but that’s a secondary issue. Is that what we are doing? Which means tradition, which means complying, acquiescing to a society that’s so rotten. Right? Is that what you’re doing here? Don’t look at Narayan.
Q: He’s the best person to answer that question, sir.
K: Ah! He said to you — lady, don’t get away with it — he said to you we all share this place. This is our home, this is our place; we’re all cooperating. It’s not he decides and we all, like monkeys, follow.
(Laughter)
We have done that for eighteen years. I’m… — no, I won’t express it, what I feel.
(Pause)
As I said the other day, I’ll fight for you, I’ll go to the limit, if the Foundation stops you. I said… I pointed all this out to you. I’m doing it now, I assure you. And I’m asking you, are you… is this place becoming traditional? That… Mr… he says, (laughs) ‘I am traditional.’ He really doesn’t mean it. That’s what I’m trying to get at. If you were really traditional you wouldn’t be here. Right sir? Right? Would you?
Q: No.
K: You see, you’re all so… So I’m asking you… Because, please sirs, we’ve got tremendous responsibility; unless you see this… I feel this place is a place where a new — if I may use the word — culture (laughs) can come out. I really do, honestly. A new flowering can take place, in a dark world. This may be an oasis in a world. I feel that way. But if we are all saying, ‘Well…’ (laughs) ‘I’m traditional, you’re not; you love and I hate, and you think…’
So I’m asking… — please forgive me, I must stick to this. You won’t answer whether it exists in India, but to bring it home nearer, to the valley — and that means you — do you have love? Do you love? That lady, Major’s wife, said, ‘I do. I love my children.’ I wish she were here. Is she ill?
GN: No, she has gone for a marriage, sir.
K: Ah! (Laughs)
(Laughter)
Oh God, what a world this is! So do we love, sir? Now answer it.
Q: Yes.
K: Do you?
Q: Yes, I do.
K: Are you quite sure?
Q: Yes sir. I do love the children here.
K: No, no! I said…
Q: (Inaudible)
K: Listen, listen; no. I said do you know… have this feeling of great love, compassion? Not for children — of course — but compassion. You understand?
Q: Compassion involves care or concern for them, yes.
Q: In that sense, yes.
K: Look… A missionary has great love. He says, ‘I care… in the name of Jesus. I’ve come all the way to this bloody heat — God! (laughs) — and I… in the name of Jesus. I love Jesus, therefore I come.’ I say that isn’t love; that’s just loving a belief, an image — you follow? So I’m asking you — please sirs, do answer this. Don’t…
(Pause)
If you so love, you’re an exception in this country, are you? Wait, careful. Don’t… don’t… don’t… Look into it carefully. Don’t turn away and look at your husband or somebody. That means you’re an exception.
Q: I don’t think so.
K: Then you know others? I mean, madame, I’m not trying to pin you down to anything; I’m just asking you. Because I feel, after all these years I’ve travelled in this country — I’m limiting it to this country — I don’t think you have it. Not you. The country hasn’t got it. How can it, when it allows all this going on, all that? Right? Poverty, temples… Did Shankara talk about love? Right? They talked, in Christianity, love of Jesus. I don’t call that love. Shankara never mentioned love. Did he? Anybody? Scholars? And all the leaders, from there down, have they? They have all done social work, kindly poor… for this, that and the other. Have the… do sanyasis love? Come on! You…
Q: They renunciate the world, but they don’t love it.
K: What sir?
Q: They renunciate the world…
K: Oh…
Q: …and by renunciation they don’t love. They cut out themselves.
Q: Love and compassion were the essence of Buddha’s teaching.
Q: And so was it of Vivekananda.
K: (Laughs) Buddha talked about it. Probably, he’s the only man who talked about it. And Shankara chased him out of India. Right? So please… Now, we have gone into this so far — what shall we do? How do we have the perfume of this? How do we have it? If we don’t have it — you follow, Narayan? — if we don’t have it, the school will be nothing. You may have freedom amongst yourselves… but the central thing which is missing… You understand, sir? Mr Venkatraman? What shall we do sir? It’s your problem, sir. What shall we do?
The boy… one of the boys, after the discussion the other morning about images, he says — very shyly and rather nicely — says, ‘Sir, may I ask you something?’ I said, ‘Of course.’ He said, ‘Have you any images?'(Laughs)
(Laughter)
I said, ‘If I had any images, I couldn’t talk about it. I’m not a hypocrite; I don’t… at least, for myself, I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I’ve never had an image.’ He looked at me, like… (laughs) — you know? — nice chap, so we… I took his hand; we walked and forgot about it.
So please, what shall we do? As I said, I feel Rishi Valley has been through a lot of ugly business. You know it better than I do. I don’t have to go into it. Right sirs? Right, Mr Thomas?
Q: Yes.
K: You’ve been a long time here. And can we now create an oasis here? I have talked to Mrs Simmons, who is the… She’s not the boss. (Laughs) She’s part of the school, with all the… Have you talked to her?
Q: (Inaudible)
K: Talk to her. Pull her to pieces. Find out what they are all doing at Brockwood. We talked this matter, too: a centre where something new can take place. But a new… a thing new cannot be born in old bottles — you know the saying — and are we all old bottles? (Laughs)
(Pause)
There is Mrs Simmons and Dr Sidoo there, who has a K Foundation school in Canada, near Vancouver, on the west coast of Canada. You can talk to him. There she is, sitting there, next to Mrs Simmons. Somebody is waiting?
Q: Somebody came up, Krishnaji. Somebody came up the stairs.
(Break in audio)
So what shall we do, sir? What shall we all do? Please put your… what shall we do? I don’t want to talk to you, if you don’t mind, beyond quarter past five. It gets too weary. (Laughs) I’m sorry; I can’t sleep afterwards. So would you please… what shall we do?
(Pause)
For the past four years — I have to… I have to bring it to a point. You seem… — for the past four years, I’ve been talking to Mr Balasundaram to bring about change here, deeply, fundamentally. I suggested various things: from five to ten, no classes, but be concerned with their health, good bodies, good manners, proper way of speaking, and help them to have this affection for each other. It hasn’t been done. I have been at it. I ask myself: (laughs) will this happen again? Not with Narayan; the whole weight of this country. I wonder if you understand what I’m talking about.
Q: Yes.
K: Since (inaudible name) days — you were here when (inaudible name) was here, some of you?
Q: Some of us were here, sir.
K: You remember there used to be those — as he used to call it — line of houses with workers down there? Filthy beyond words, where the present… — what do you call it?
Q: Rural Centre.
K: Rural Centre. Filthy! And those people… God! I used to pass it by, purposely, with him every day and I said, ‘For God’s sake, change it.’ Nothing! Nothing! Year-after-year. And you all put up with it. So for God’s sake, I’m saying please let us do something. It’s in your hands not in mine, because I’m off. That’s why I said this is your home. And it is. You know? If I live here for ten years, my God, I can’t… Not only a teacher, I treat it as… — you follow?
Now, how shall… because I’m telling you from five to ten: no class at all. The parents might object. They will, because they are so petty-minded people. But you are producing an… You follow? You are… you are bringing to them a great sense of tenderness, gentleness, appreciating the beauty of nature, the trees, the colour. That is the only time you have — right? — where they are receptive, where they are tender, where they want to know… and if you cram them with a lot of stuff, they’ll grow up into machines. Right? So — I have talked about this till I’m sick! — nothing has been done. So Narayan and I have been talking about it; I said, ‘Let’s get started on this, part of it.’ Right Narayan? And as we… — you follow? — move from there and produce children who are intelligent. You… It’s in your hands, sir.
One of the boys told me, he said, ‘Sir, do stay with us for… can’t you stay forever?’ You follow? He was so moved. You understand? And I…
(Pause)
So what shall we all do? Narayan — come on, sir — what shall we do? Not talk endlessly about it; I’ve done it for… All the people, Pearce… What shall we do?
Q: Sir, the examinations they take now, and later on the examinations which they may think of taking, they put a great deal of emphasis on the recall process. That is, they have to learn so much of content or knowledge, it taxes their recall process.
K: Sir, I’m not at all sure — I’m just… we’ve discussed this matter — I’m not at all sure a happy, healthy mind won’t learn much quicker. Right? Would you agree to that?
Q: I agree to it, if there is…
K: Wait, wait! Healthy mind, a happy mind, a good body, then the learning, accumulating knowledge and all that becomes fairly easy, quick. You can recall any amount of it. Right? Are… do we work in that direction? Or do we say, right from the beginning, they have to go to classes… You follow, sir? Do you create intelligence that way? You see, Brockwood is a different position: they come much older; from… there are now there — if I understand rightly — fifty nationalities, different so-called cultures, some come… oh, all kinds of… drug… — you follow? — everything coming. Here, you have none of those problems. Right? None. Here you have, on the contrary, very docile people, students — you understand? — they are very friendly. Right? They love you. You can feel it; they love you. But you don’t (laughs) give back anything to them. I want to cry with all this. You don’t know how… So what shall we do, Narayan? No, don’t look at him, sir. What shall we do, sir? And Mr Venkatraman, what shall we do?
Q: Sir, if you say, as you said, between five and ten they should not have classes or anything — suppose you say that way — no parent will send his child here.
K: No, no! Don’t say it sir.
Q: No. Suppose we do it, sir; we do it, say. We do it. We say, ‘We are not going to teach anything.’
K: Oh no. No! Don’t put…
Q: No, teach in the sense, no classes, or we are not going to impose anything on them; we want to just cultivate them. I think ninety per cent of them will say, ‘We would like to withdraw our children,’ because they want them to study, because they expect…
K: Yes sir. You tell them: a happy student will study much better. No?
Q: Yes.
K: It is an obvious fact, sir.
Q: Yes sir. Now they are more concerned about the marks, when they score marks, the reaction of the teachers and the reaction of the parents bothers them more than rectifying their mistakes in a particular subject.
K: Sir… Sir — if I may repeat something about myself — they wanted me… they sent me to schools in England, whatever filthy studies I did…
(Break in audio)
They sent me to examination halls, not a… I’d turn in blank pages. Right? Blank pages. Because I was too nervous; I couldn’t… So they sent me to Paris, to Sorbonne and all the rest of it. At the end of it, Dr Besant said, ‘Enough! You can’t do it. It’s not your way of life, so forget it.’ Right? Don’t make me an exception; I am not. Perhaps I am; I’m not. But if you are… have children who are free, happy, sir, they learn… You don’t have to tell the parents we are not going to teach them; you say, ‘We will help them to learn properly.’
Q: But I think, sir, if we make this particular point very clear: that we are not going to teach from five to ten, there are parents in India who will send their children here.
K: Don’t…
GN: No… No, I don’t think the point is that we are not going to teach…
K: That’s right.
GN: You see, the whole situation is from five to ten, if they come, we help them in more interesting ways, more lively ways: they paint, they draw, they play, they are given a lot of care. It requires a different kind of teacher, first. I, who teach in the upper school, may not be able to even represent the thing properly, so it is not really my area of work. You should be able to represent it properly. They may be learning because they are happy, many things which are more vital than: ‘The capital of India is Delhi,’ which is meaningless, and that’s what they are doing now.
K: You see, sir…
GN: In fact…
K: You see, sir, I would talk to the parents, before… I would talk to those parents, say, ‘Look, come over here…’ (Laughs) Right? I’ll talk to them.
GN: It is not difficult to represent this to the parents.
K: Of course, sir. I’ll convince them. If you’re…
GN: I’ll take it upon myself
K: If you see this is to be done, you will show it to the parents, h owever blind they are.
Q: Sir, we should work it out, sir.
K: No, don’t work it… Do it!
Q: And do it.
K: It has been working out for the last ten years, five years.
GN: In fact, in the school where I taught for the last five years, they teach very, very little until they are eleven or twelve — very little — but they teach them many things in an oblique way. And the children learn a great deal. And they’re very alive to colour, to… to movement, to… They’re very, very intelligent, happy, and they learn a great deal. I mean, this has been done in some very, very good schools.
K: Sir, may I ask, are you convinced? Are you sure this… you can help to have more intelligence this way? Are you convinced? No, not by me — the fact. You know, sir, they say children can learn higher mathematics at the age of six. They are doing that in America, certain parts of it. What is going to happen to them at the age of thirty? What sir? They’re not… They will… It’ll… all cerebral, won’t it? So are you sure, Mr… that this may help us to bring about affection, care, love? You follow what I’m saying? Will it? Are you convinced? You’re doubtful, sir. Are you?
Q: It will definitely help, sir. It will help.
K: Then, you… No. Inside you feel sure? Then blaze with it. Go talk to the parents. Parents won’t be the difficulty, sir. It’s us.
(Pause)
So I’m trying to find out… — not trying to — if I was here, if I was teaching here, I would burn with passion with this — you see? — because I want them… — not I… — I feel here are young children who have no idea what love is, except they have a feeling for it, and they are destroyed by the age of ten — you know this; you have seen… (inaudible) — and they… So I say let’s find out, from the age of five to ten, if we can’t cultivate something else, too. Right sir? Will you? Will you battle for it? (Laughs) Give your life for it? Right sir. So I’m trying — not trying — I see a way of bringing about this affection, this care, this sense of — you know? — man is… not *my* brother and *my* wife — human beings.
You haven’t answered my question. Mr Thomas? Is there such love in this country? Is there such love in this valley? There is a poem I will show… You must have read George Meredith’s *Love in the* *Valley*? Have you? Have you, sir?
Q: No sir.
K: I will give it to you. Read it. I will show it to you, rather. Is there such love, sir, in this valley? What sir? Don’t wriggle out of it, sir. What?
Q: I can’t answer that question.
K: Why? Why? Is it so secret? What?
Q: I’m not sure.
K: Sir, come off it! (Laughs) After an hour, (inaudible) …you can’t say, ‘I’m not sure of it.’ You’re dodging. I’m not asking you personally, whether you have — that’s for you to answer — but is there such love in the valley? That means amongst all of us. What sir? Commit yourself to something, sir.
Q: No, I can’t say, ‘Yes,’ or, ‘No.’
K: Oh…! (Laughs)
You have lived long enough here, sir. You have met all kinds of teachers, all kinds of bosses. Obviously not. When you are bossed by somebody, this can’t exist. You can’t have a flower, a delicate flower, trodden down by heavy boots — it’s destroyed.
(Pause)
So let’s begin. Right? We’ll discuss how to create this thing. Living waters, sir, not dead theories. I’ll stop, because… I’m going to pursue this, every (laughs) meeting with teachers; I’m going to stick to this, if you will permit me.
God sir, you have had fifty years here! You understand, sir?
(Pause)
Enough for this evening? Sermon is over. Did you… did I ever repeat that story? If you have heard it, forgive me. There was a preacher, teacher; every morning he used to talk to his disciples and give a sermon. I see some of you have heard it, by your smile. And those who haven’t heard it, I’m repeating it. He talked every morning, early before the sunrise: beautiful, cool, lovely surroundings. And one morning, just as he gets on the rostrum, a bird comes, sits on the veranda and begins to sing. At the end of ten minutes, the bird flies away and the teacher says, ‘The sermon is over.’ Right sir?
Well sirs, the sermon is over! (Laughs)