K School – Adults Discussion, Ojai, California, 29 October 1975

Krishnamurti: Mark Lee and I have had a couple of hours’ talk and I think it might be worthwhile if we can start as though we’re starting from now, a clean slate. Right, sir? You haven’t met the principal of Rishi Valley school in India. He was there for three weeks at Brockwood and we spent every morning discussing what the school should be in Rishi Valley. And if I may go over it, it might be worthwhile. We said that from the age of 5 or 4, up to 12, the chief concern should be the psychological change in the student, uncondition him, his behaviour, his way of speaking, his outlook, from that age till 12; not only psychological change but also to read and write and all that, included in that. So from the age of 5 to 12 we would have students or children who are not being conditioned in a new way, but the chief concern of the teacher or teachers would be to see that psychologically, inwardly, they are totally different from their environmental… other children, society, so that when they grow up, after 12, they still retain that quality. And from the age of 12 to 18, some of them may go to university, others may not. We left it at that for the time.

So here we are concerned with students or children from 5 to 12. Right? Please, we’ll discuss this; I’m not laying down; I’m no authority. I have an abomination of authority so… If we agree, all the trustees as well as all of us — and I’d like to add here there should not be a division between the trustees and the teacher, that, ‘they and we’. After all, they are concerned with the school, with us, and we are concerned with them. They are responsible, the trustees, to the government — taxes, and ultimately they are responsible, if I may point out, to me. I’m not putting that as a vain, superior entity; it was formed for that purpose. So they are concerned with the school. They are concerned with what the centre, which we’ll discuss later on, should be. The trustees are concerned with the whole thing. It’s not you and we. So there should not be… if there has been any division, it was a misunderstanding and that misunderstanding should be wiped out. We are all together in this, the same boat; and if we are concerned with the 5 to 12, how to bring about the psychological change? We’re going to discuss that now. Is that all right? Not, who is in charge. We’ll discuss that too if you wish, at the beginning. All right.

I think for administrative purposes there must be somebody, a head, like at Brockwood — you know? — but it is together. If you are the head of it, you are not somebody apart, dominating us. We are together creating the school, and therefore together we as the teachers are responsible to the Foundation and the Foundation responsible for us. There is no division. Is that right?

Erna Lilliefelt: No, I think that’s clear. If anybody does have a question, I think now is the time to raise it because there have been misunderstandings.

K: Please ask. And with regard to… we’ll go step by step with it. If once the trustees and you, we all agree, the confidence is there. You follow? The confidence in you, in him and in her, if you’re all working together, from the trustees, but we have to show that we are capable and that they are welcome to help us. Right? Am I making this clear? Right? So there is no… This has been a battle, sir, wherever I’ve been. There are trustees in India of K Foundation, trustees in England of K Foundation, and trustees… they all say, ‘Well, they are separate.’ In India it is something dreadful and I have fought it and they… Never mind. So there is no division between the trustees and the teachers. We are together in the same boat. The trustees have a certain function, like to see to the books and, you know, all that kind of stuff, arrange talks, and the teachers have their own responsibility; but we are all working together and not separately. Please, let’s make this quite clear so that there is no misunderstanding between the trustees and the group who are going to take charge of the school. We are together.

Mary Zimbalist: May I make a plea about this because I’ve seen it in the other places, the other Foundations, and that is if there is something that seems like a misunderstanding or a disagreement, that it immediately be brought up; and you go to the person or the people and say, ‘Look, am I right in thinking that you think this?’ or whatever it is. Undo it right away, because often if for reasons of tact or letting it go by, something is a tiny misunderstanding and then it’s left there like a pebble in your shoe and from that grow further misunderstandings. It’s so easy to just do the human thing which is to say, ‘Look, am I wrong or right about this?’ We can do is as we are a group, among ourselves.

K: Quite right.

MZ: It’s terribly important this, that we speak normally like friends, and so that there won’t ever be misunderstandings.

K: In England the situation arose that very same day and the same afternoon, finished. Mrs Cadogan and we all got together and it’s over. Right? Not carry on.

MZ: And not assume that somebody thinks this about that and therefore — you know? Find out right away, each one.

K: Yes, and also… So we are together. Please? Right? There is not separation — they and we. Is that…

So, now let’s start. Do you think it is possible from the age of 5 to 12 to bring up… to educate children not only academically but much more laying emphasis on the psychological movement and change in that movement? Because I think that is very important, and not only in the present situation in America but it is a real problem of human beings.

David Moody: The ages 5 to 12, is there something…

K: Limited?

DM: Is there something arbitrary about the age of 12? Is it going to be different after age 12?

K: No, no, no. No, 14 — put it any age you like, but we thought… I told you, in discussing with Mr Balasundaram, who is the head of the Rishi Valley school, we said from 5 to 12. If you say, ‘No, that’s not suitable here; it’ll be 5 to 10,’ or whatever, we agree.

DM: Is it not the case that in any educational forum, whether it’s with age 5 or 12 or 18, that the same effort is being made?

K: Yes. Yes, that’s right.

DM: That’s the case.

K: Is that… Right?

Mark Lee: I think in this case we’re talking about up to junior high school.

DM: I see.

K: I don’t know all the forms, sir, please; junior high school or…

ML: Well, we have to think of — you know? — the way it’s divided up in this.

K: So, if you all agree — before I start with that — there are three of you here. Can you manage this or must you have more teachers, more students? He was telling me more students are coming, about fifteen, probably, altogether. Can we three (laughs) — sorry, I’m… — can we three take charge of this, or do we need more properly trained teachers? I’m not questioning that you are not or he is, but do we need a man who is familiar with the world, what is happening there? And will he be able to help us, if he came with us, to guide us with the school? Or will you three take charge of it efficiently, having capacity, having the drive? Because this is something which has never been tried. No school has done it, either in India or in Europe or here. This is the first time we are trying to do it: be concerned primarily with the psychological change of a human being. Add academic things during or after, but our primary emphasis is on that.

DM: Is the question whether one of us, or any of us, or all of us have sufficient drive? Is that the question?

K: That’s one question. Sufficient energy. You know what it means? Sufficient capacity; and are you really interested in changing the human mind? Not only the students but ourselves in relation to the student. Not that we must change first and then teach the children, but together we’re changing each other. I don’t know if I’m making myself clear.

DM: No, I understand.

Questioner: Sir, I think we need more people. We need more trained teachers. We need people to…

K: That’s what I’m asking you. If you need them, how are you going to get them?

ML: Well, we have one of two people who are in the wings waiting and…

K: Is Dr Rusch one of them?

ML: No, not as a teacher. Not as a teacher. He’s more a friend of the school.

K: Oh, I mean, to what extent will he go with you?

ML: That we would have to investigate. We have to talk about it.

K: Will he go with you entirely?

ML: I can’t answer that.

K: Oh, I thought it… all right.

ML: I know he’s interested.

K: If I misinformed you, forgive me. I thought this morning you conveyed that.

ML: No, I said I thought he is already started; that is, in the sense he’s…

K: No, but he’s involved with other things.

ML: He is; and one would have to clear that up first.

K: You see, sir, I don’t know if you know enough about all these things. They join various groups…

DM: Yes, I know.

K: …and then add this, another feather to that group. It doesn’t work that way.

DM: Right.

K: They go there to get sensitive training or Transcendental Meditation or how to awaken kundalini. I’ve been through all that from childhood (laughs) and that’s so utterly empty from my point of view. Transcendental Meditation, the sensitive training, going off to Zen Buddhism and trying to meditate — I’ll go into all that if you wish but that’s not the occasion now. So there are many, many people who are involved in many of these things and want to add this too. And therefore they say, ‘Yes, I’m delighted to come here and help you,’ but keeping an eye there, or a foot there. So we’ve said at Brockwood, ‘Please, we don’t want you if you come here to go off for the weekend to meditate with the Transcendental Meditation.’ We’ve gone into it and say, ‘Look, Transcendental Meditation is sheer nonsense’ — we’ve gone into it and I explained how it arose in India and so on and so on and so on, and if they say, ‘Sorry, we like that,’ we say, ‘Perfectly right; go.’ But to mix all this, you know, it doesn’t work. Right, sir?

So do we three have this capacity, energy, drive to create such a school? We’ll invite others — you follow? — they might come and help you more; like you said somebody from the East and others; they’ll join, but we must be a nucleus of people. We said this is the thing that matters.

DM: How can we know in advance whether we have sufficient drive? One comes…

K: Ah, no, no; but you know the feeling of it, the inward demand for such a thing and the intensity of such a demand.

DM: That comes and goes.

K: Ah, no, no, that’s… It won’t come and go if it… Sir, I have to earn money; I spend money; working for money. But if I say this is the thing which I feel is right, is correct, is true; because human beings in the world are degenerating; the Americans are becoming — you know what is happening in the world, in America: the vulgarity, you know, the whole thing of it; and this should be an oasis. Oasis being a place where there is fresh water amidst a desert. And that fresh water is kept, not by you and me but by the spring, which is there. Now if we say this is the thing that is absolutely necessary, that children, before reading or writing, this should be the primary thing in their life, in relationship with a teacher, if you feel that, if we all feel that, then we’ll have capacity. Because, after all, capacity comes by application. Right? And you can apply when you say, ‘It is important. I must do this.’

ML: Sir, may I go back?

K: Go, sir, I’m not chairman. We’re talking.

ML: I want to make one thing clear. As I understand it, we’re talking about finding more people to be a part of this new place.

K: Absolutely.

ML: All right. I see this in two parts. One, we’re talking about teachers, people with practical skills, people who can work with the children on a daily basis.

DM: Teaching them how to read and write.

ML: Being responsible for them day to day.

K: Teaching them not only to read and write, but psychologically.

DM: No, but I’m asking what Mark is saying.

ML: Yes, psychologically, academically, socially, all of those things, as you are doing, as you are responsible. Also, are we talking about other people, say, like Professor Rusch or others who are not teaching but who are working with the school?

K: In what way?

ML: Well that’s what I want to be clear about.

K: I want to know.

ML: Right.

K: Are they interfering — I’m asking — or imposing or saying, ‘No, sorry, what is important is not psychological change but something else.’ You follow what I’m saying? I want to help the school. I live in Los Angeles. I’m a professor. I want to help. And I see that you three, or five of you or ten of you are laying too much emphasis on one thing. I come and discuss with you. Or because of my capacity and my name and this and that, you feel, by Jove he knows so much more than I do, we’d better kowtow to him. You follow? It all depends what you mean by help.

ML: Yes. And it depends on in what spirit they are part of the school.

K: That’s what I’m suggesting.

ML: But, sir, I feel that we have in the last six months discovered that we have to have more people…

K: Understood, sir. Get them.

ML: …on the school side of it.

K: What do you mean, the school side of it?

ML: Well, people who are… You see, we decided last year to have an educational committee: two trustees plus myself who would work on the school, decide on school matters. What I’m suggesting is that perhaps we could make that a larger, more professional group of people concerned with education.

K: Just go easy on that. I’m going to tell you something. Say you three and two from the Foundation.

ML: Yes.

K: You are going to choose the teacher, the student, the new person that’ll come and help you. Together we’re going to choose.

ML: This group.

K: This group.

ML: Correct.

K: On what basis are we going to choose, select or whatever word you like to use? On his capacity to help us? And what does that word ‘help’ mean? You know, how a lot of mischief arises if we are not clear. That’s all.

EL: Do you feel, Mark, that you need a more professional, more qualified advisor to consult with for running the school?

ML: I feel it would be useful to have a bigger group of people who would act as consultants because we’re talking about something here that is not like a typical school. We’re talking about something that is very, very complex to deal with the psychological, not just the academic; and I think it would be good to have some sensitive child psychologist or to have someone who had a feeling for this and who could offer in discussion with this small group, insights into things which I’m not trained for, David’s not trained for, Elaine’s not trained for.

K: You mean a psychologist?

ML: Someone who has gone into these things; not who’s going to dominate the group with all of the theory and so on.

K: Find him, if you can find him; and if he’s interested in what we are doing…

ML: Yes.

K: …if he’s says, ‘This is right, this is true…’

ML: Yes.

K: …not because, ‘I like you, you like me,’ and all that bilge…

ML: No, no.

K: …but this is really…

ML: Right. A serious thing.

K: …the right thing to do, correct thing to do, then of course you’ll have him. But are there such people?

ML: I don’t know.

K: Like a man like Shainberg would be marvellous, but he lives in New York.

ML: I just wanted to know if we were open to this kind of thing.

K: Yes… first let’s be clear…

ML: Yes.

K: …that this nucleus of people living at Ojai are primarily interested in a school that is trying to transform the character, the psychology of the student. If that is deeply understood, you can invite anybody. If they want to change. If they want them to change, to become Zen Buddhists or Transcendental Meditation or this or that, I say that’s absurd, because we are trying to start something totally new. Right, sir? And you might not find such people. If you find such people, thank God, bring them in.

ML: That’s all I wanted to know.

K: I mean, that’s obvious.

EL: Well, the question to me is: do you feel you want to go out and look for such people? After all, you three have got to deal with this problem every single day. If you run into a problem, does that mean you’re going to have to go and ask them?

ML: No. No, no, no. But I’m not saying this would…

K: You would have a man who would come here, help once a week or a fortnight and look at it, say, ‘Look, I’ll do this, that but I’m…’ — you know, help them.

ML: For example, when Chuck Rusch has made these visits to us, we’ve had some informal discussions. His experience with young American teenagers has proved to be very useful in some areas. Some areas it hasn’t been, and we’ve had to cut through that because he’s wedded to a particular type of education. But his insights, his experience and so on, and he shared it very naturally, very easily with us, not pushing anything, but because he’s interested in education. He’s primarily interested in education so he’s investigating. So I just want to get the feeling that, you know, that we could develop such a base of people.

K: Of course, that’s understood.

EL: Well, I would think that, yes.

K: Of course, of course. But…

ML: This doesn’t abdicate, you know, mean that we’re abdicating any responsibility for the children and for the running of the school; it’s just something more solid.

K: But, Mark Lee, there must be a nucleus of people who are here, who are working for this, and that’s what I mean.

Albion Patterson: I think if you’re going to have fifteen by the middle of the year, you need another person here, in the small room.

ML: A teacher. Yes.

AP: Everything: teachers…

ML: Yes.

DM: Fifteen students?

EL: Mark, is that correct?

ML: Well, we have three children coming of the same age as those that we presently have.

EL: You’ve definitely got them?

ML: January.

Q: Six.

ML: That makes six.

EL: Yes.

ML: Right. Then we have these people who are coming from England and so on.

K: Just a minute, just a minute, go slow. Make it clear — not ‘so on’.

ML: All right. You want…

EL: That hasn’t been decided yet.

ML: Well, do you mean… I haven’t written and told them to come definitely because we haven’t been clear as to whether we had something to offer them.

EL: Well, that’s right.

ML: We have no space. We have no teacher. So I haven’t said come. But they have indicated that they want to come. There’s a woman coming from Mexico on Thanksgiving day with her child; she wants to come. There are two women here in the valley that have young, 6 year old daughters. They would like to put their children in.

K: Count them, sir. Count them. Just let’s see.

DM: Wait, Mark, who’s the third new definite for January, besides the two Marx brothers?

K: Marx brothers? (Laughter)

DM: Yes.

ML: There’s a woman in Los Angeles who’s a friend of Mrs Myerson’s…

K: Doesn’t matter.

ML: Barenson, I think is her name. She has a daughter. She’s coming up so see. She says she definitely wants to come.

EL: But none of you have met her, none of the other teachers that matter.

ML: No, but I’m saying that these are…

EL: But these aren’t definite.

ML: But they’re the only ones who have paid money. The Marx people are the only ones who have paid money; if that’s definite.

EL: Well, but you’ve all accepted. Is that correct?

ML: Yes. Right, right.

EL: You’ve all met the children and Mrs Marx and so on?

ML: David has. I don’t know if Elaine has.

DM: Yes.

Elaine: Yes, I have.

DM: But this woman from Los Angeles, she hasn’t been accepted. There’s nothing definite about that.

ML: No, no, no.

K: How many are definite, sir?

ML: Well, the ones that… let’s take it on the basis of whether they’ve paid their fees or not: two.

DM: New ones, in addition to the three we now have.

ML: Yes.

EL: So you have five.

ML: Five. But we have all these other people who are planning to come.

MZ: But you may not want them. Or you may. I mean, you don’t know that.

EL: Well, Mark, you can’t count on that.

ML: No, but it’s something we have to be prepared for.

K: I’ll tell you. There’s a man called (inaudible), a Frenchman, with his wife and two children. (Inaudible) has been through Sahara in his…

ML: Jeep.

K: …and he came to Brockwood several times, and just before I left, he was there. He said, ‘We are going to Ojai, putting our children there because Mark Lee has got a daughter who is about our children’s age. And would you push this?’ I said, ‘I’m sorry, I’m nothing to do with it. They will decide.’ He didn’t like that but he said, ‘I’m coming anyhow.’ His idea of education is to let the children do what they jolly well please. And his idea also is: children give such a lot…

DM: Children?

K: …give so much to the place. I said tommyrot. The children…

MZ: The children were running riot through the school.

K: And they were there for four days and the teachers who were already busy with their own students had to occupy themselves with the children. The parents went off doing something else. You know, the good old stuff.

MZ: The children are very young; they’re under 5, I think.

K: Oh, I don’t know their age. I’m just telling you there are people like that going to come, because they don’t know what to do with these children. Here, Ojai, they’ve all heard that there’s going to be a school here and we are starting with young children. Brockwood says, ‘Sorry, we’re not going to deal with young children.’ I’m sure you’ll have fifteen and over, the moment you say, ‘This is what we are going to do.’

MZ: How many can you cope with in the other room?

DM: Well that room is (inaudible) and we couldn’t have more than eight in there, and we couldn’t mix the young ones with the old ones. So this is another very practical problem. We have designed that room for the older students; they need the space. The younger ones need space also.

K: So what will you do, sir? What will you do if you have ten or fifteen by the end…

ML: I wouldn’t accept them for January, sir. We have no… physically we couldn’t accommodate them. I would say the end of the year, perhaps, but not January.

MZ: What will change at the end of the year then?

ML: Well…

K: Then where will you move?

ML: The only possibility is to use the flat above the office, but that wouldn’t be available until after the spring. We have another family, Mr and Mrs Jeffries…

K: England.

ML: From England. They have a 6 year old and an 8 year old, and they would like to come. I’m only going… because I can’t meet these people, I’m only going by their correspondence and so on. I agree completely we have to be selective, highly selective. The three children we have now, we have because they were the only applications in the age group we decided on. They are not what I would call the ideal children. They have many, many problems; they need remedial work and so on. So we have to be selective but we have to plan for the future and we can only plan according to the people who have come forth, and we have to make some long term, long range objectives as to how to expand the school.

Q: Sir, does this affect our discussion of… any way of this group of 5 to 12 year olds, whether we have them or don’t have them in January? Does it alter the…

K: No, no, of course not, but…

Q: Is there no other space at all that could be used, for the younger ones, for instance?

ML: Well we’re not allowed to use Arya Vihara. That’s clear. It would have to be…

EL: You’re not allowed to use it for day students?

ML: No, not as a school. We could have some children living there as a residence but not as a school.

AP: Why couldn’t you use the apartment above the office?

ML: We could easily. That space, there would be space there for five, six children.

Q: It would be so much easier, I think, for the children if there are not two or three alone, really, if they are…

ML: A group.

Q: What do you educators think? Don’t you think it’s easier for the children?

ML: Much easier. Three is really not a good number at all.

Q: No. I know. I have… (inaudible)

K: Sir, could you… I’m outrageous; perhaps you’ll jump on me; it’s all right. Can you hire a house, rent a house?

ML: Well, I would rather work from the other end first, sir, and talk about finding a teacher.

K: Wait, wait. No. Teachers, we’ll get them, sir, but are you prepared to meet the psychological problem? You have three, five, ten, fifteen students; all right. Are you prepared, know, are aware how to transform, how to change their mental structure which is conditioned, which is American, which is… you know? I met a boy the other day — you know, I was telling you, that Indian family — he’s been here for several years; he’s a boy, I should think about 10, less than that. He’s completely Americanized: rough, vulgar, shouting — you follow? — when you say come, he says, ‘I’m sorry, I’m busy with something else.’

MZ: And he doesn’t even say, ‘I’m sorry.’ (Laughs)

K: I should think, sir, if we could discuss, apart from the number of students, apart from space, if we, the three of us, could discuss and see how to meet this problem, the problem of change in the student. If that is more or less clear then we can get other teachers, find space; that’ll all become a secondary issue.

ML: Right.

K: Because this has never been tried. Right, sir? I don’t know… at least I’m not aware that any school is concerned with this. They are concerned with turning out… you know?

DM: Your schools in Brockwood and the schools in India, have they not tried this?

K: No. Brockwood has started with students, first year; drugs, sex, freedom to do what they want.

MZ: You mean from the students’ point of view, Krishnaji, but the school… that wasn’t the point of view of Brockwood.

K: No, I said that’s the kind of students we had.

MZ: That’s what we had to live with.

DM: But that was the intention of the school, to bring about the psychological change.

K: Oh, absolutely.

MZ: But it was an older group.

DM: Right. So this has been tried but it hasn’t…

K: Ah, no, it has been tried in our schools.

DM: Right.

K: But nowhere else.

DM: I see.

K: Here we are starting something totally new. Are you three prepared for this? Prepared in the sense, have the capacity to do it, what is involved in it, what do we mean by change, whether it’s possible to change. Those three boys, I saw them, the girl and the two boys, whether you can say, ‘Look…’ talk to them, break them — you follow what I mean? — in the real sense, not brutally, but politeness, consideration, generosity — you follow? — first, all that. Can you do this? If you say… No, let’s put it this way: can we together talk about it, investigate how far we can do it — y ou follow? — and how to do it.

Q: Right.

DM: Of course we can do that.

K: Let’s do that, then.

Q: Yes.

K: The rest of it, let’s be clear. The Foundation, the trustees of the Foundation and you are one. I want this rubbed in. Sorry. (Laughs) There should not be distrust between you and them. There is no ‘you and them’, they are one. I’ve been discussing with the three of them — you weren’t there at lunch — and I’m now saying, for God’s sake, the Trust exists to help the school, to see that the school is maintained. Like in England, the Foundation is helping financially Brockwood. If there is any misunderstanding between the Foundation and Brockwood, they settle it immediately. In England you have to have separate… what is it?

MZ: Well, there’s a board of trustees for the Foundation and there’s a board of trustees for Brockwood Park Krishnamurti Educational Centre. They are the same thing.

K: Same people.

EL: It’s legally a complication.

K: So is that clear, Mark Lee, please?

ML: Yes.

K: I want it perfectly clear that there should be no conflict between us, that we will not talk against you behind your back. If we have something to say, we’ll come and tell you.

ML: Directly.

K: And if you have something, come and tell us.

ML: Yes, sir.

K: Not say, ‘Well, this… we’ll hold…’ — no backbiting, gossip and all that horror that goes on in any institution. Right? Right, sir?

DM: Right.

K: That’s clear.

Then the school primarily — not primarily; the only thing is to change the mentality, the psyche of the student. If we agree that it is the essential thing in education, then we will say, now, how to bring this about?

DM: Right.

K: Right?

DM: Right.

K: Right. We’ll discuss it now. I’m willing. Let’s discuss it now a little bit.

DM: Right.

K: The children come to you very conditioned already, whether they are 5 or 12 or 18. Right? They are rude, especially in America; they have tremendous energy, don’t know what to do; they want to imitate the older people; all the rest of it. You know, all that goes on.

Q: Yes.

K: Now how will I, if I was a teacher here, deal with the problem, say, look, I want to change their mind — you follow? — their psyche. How shall I do it? Right?

DM: Right.

K: How will you propose to do it?

DM: Is it not first that we must see with clarity what is their mind, what is the nature of their mind?

K: Oh, that’s fairly simple, sir, it doesn’t take years or a week. You can spot it immediately. I noticed it. You were introducing Mrs Zimbalist to one of them; he said, ‘Hi…’

Q: Sat there.

K: Sat there. You follow? An older lady — you follow? — it’s a discourtesy. And you see that. I’m not saying… please, just an example. So how will you deal with that boy and say, ‘Look, be polite, which means consideration. If you have no consideration in your heart, you can’t be polite.’ So how will you help this boy to have this enormous consideration for another, where in America everybody is out for himself? Like the rest of the world, because the rest of the world is copying America. Sorry to say. So how will you help this boy, that boy to have real consideration for another? That’s part of the psychological change. How will you help him? What will you do?

DM: Communicate.

K: Ah, yes, how do you communicate? Come on, sir, discuss. We are discussing it. You understand? He’s against you — right? — he says, ‘Why the hell should I get up when I’m introduced?’ He’s copying the rest. He’s already conditioned. So he comes here heavily conditioned and one of the symptoms of that conditioning is total discourtesy, total lack of consideration. How will you help that boy to have consideration? Because — follow it, sir, it’s very difficult — if you set an example then he’s imitating you, either through… because he’s playing up to you or he thinks, ‘Marvellous, I’m going to imitate him.’ So out of fear, out of affection, out of desire to please you, he imitates you. But that’s not consideration.

DM: No.

K: So how will you do it?

DM: He needs to feel that about you.

K: How will you… Go on, sir, tell me. I’m one of your students.

DM: I don’t know.

K: (Inaudible)

(Pause in recording)

Q: …and the resistance that prevents them from going along.

K: Yes. How will you remove the resistance?

Q: Again and again and again. You have to deal with it over and over.

K: Is there a way of doing it… then see what happens if you over and… then it becomes another habit.

Q: Yes. Sure.

DM: And they feel brow-beaten.

Q: Right.

K: ‘Oh, here she comes…’ (laughs)

Q: Right.

K: Go on.

ML: Sir, don’t you first have to develop some kind of a relationship with them so that they trust you?

K: Wait. Now, wait, look, that means what? Time. Right? You have them for three weeks, a month or whatever it is, and during that time they are getting strengthened in their conditioning. Right? And so when you allow time, the older factors become intensified, because you are free here. Right? So what will you do? Come on. Let’s find out. You can’t punish them, give them marks for good conduct (laughs); you can’t say, ‘Well, follow me.’ There’s no authority. You follow, sir? What will you do with that child? Say, ‘Please, have the beauty of consideration in you.’

ML: Sir, they don’t know what you’re talking about when you are using those words.

K: I’m talking to myself so that I see they must have it. Right? Of course they’re not going to listen to me. I can’t communicate to a dead resistance. They call me square or this or that, and there it is. So I must be clear in myself how to talk to them so that they feel this, demand it. And there must be a way, mustn’t there be?

DM: I don’t know.

K: Ah!

DM: Why?

K: Let’s find out. Find out. It is a problem, it’s a challenge to you. You say, ‘Look, I can’t allow them to imitate me’ — right? — ‘I can’t exercise authority, I can’t punish them, reward them’ — right? — so what am I to do to show or awaken in them the utter importance of consideration? I’m only taking that as a symptom of a very profound disease.

I saw, when I was last in India, in Madras, a mother came to see me. The mother was a Brahmin — I don’t know… — very cultured, very nice woman, educated. She had a child of 6; she brought him along and as she was going to talk about him to me, we sent the child out. She said, ‘The most extraordinary thing happened to me. I told the boy to do something in the garden’ — he was in the garden with her — ‘and he comes up with a stick and beats me.’ You understand, sir?

DM: Yes.

K: In India this is something incredible! This violence is catching. So we went into it all — that doesn’t matter. Now here you are. How are you going to awaken this necessity in that boy? It’s left to you; what will you do? You must find an answer. Right? You can’t say, ‘Well, I’ll wait, I’ll study him, I’ll…’ (laughs)

DM: Does it make any sense to ask the question: how to find the answer?

K: No. Sir, let me put the question differently. Do you feel — you; I’m not being personal; forgive me if it sounds personal, but it’s not — do you feel the importance of consideration? Not cultured cultivation, cultured consideration, but the spontaneous feeling the other is important too?

DM: Is that it, that?

K: I’m asking you. Have you got that feeling?

DM: Sometimes.

K: Aha! That isn’t good enough (laughs). The boy has sometimes. I noticed it — he got up. First he’d sat down and said, ‘Hi’ (laughs) and then presently he felt awkward and got up. So how will you, a teacher concerned with correct behaviour, which means tremendous feeling for another — how will you do this, if you haven’t got it? And how will you help the child to have it? If you have it sometimes — I’m not being personal; forgive me; you understand, sir? — he will have it sometimes. So do you feel the importance of this, one of the factors of human behaviour, consideration, the importance of it? Not occasionally; have it, like a flower that has scent. If I haven’t got it and the student hasn’t got it, now how am I going to… how are we going to help each other to have this feeling? You understand my question?

DM: He has to help me also have it?

K: He’s my student. I haven’t got this feeling of it and he hasn’t got it, but together we’re going to find out how to get it.

DM: He doesn’t want to.

K: Ah, ah! I know, poor chap, he’s not, but together we’re going to do it because he’s your responsibility. Right? Together we are going to have this flower. Now, how shall I do it? It is important for him to have it and it is important for me to have it. Right? Now how are we together — because he’s my responsibility — how are we going to together have this feeling? What shall I do?

I know what I’d do (laughs). Think it out, sir. Be open to find out. As this is very important to me, though I haven’t got it, as I see the immense dignity of it, the beauty of it, though I haven’t got it, I feel it is really, profoundly important. Then I have got it. You follow, sir? I wonder if you… If I feel it is profoundly important, it is there. Then I will say to him — I won’t even mention consideration for others — I say, ‘Forget everything. Sit down,’ to that boy. I would talk to him, not about consideration, but his family, what he thinks, why he thinks. I would go into his mind. Because I feel responsible for that boy, or girl, whatever it is. So I would drill into him (laughs). I would say… talk about himself. You follow, sir? Then in talking about himself, he will show that he’ll trust you — right? — that you have opened a door to him, that you’re a friend. Then you can begin to penetrate. I wonder…

ML: Sir, doesn’t this take time?

K: Ah, don’t talk about time. That’s one of the… It may take a minute or it may take a day. The moment you introduce time I’m already saying, ‘Well, I will get it tomorrow.’ I don’t know. You follow? I’m not interested in time. I see the utter importance of being tremendously considerate, and I won’t… time is not there. You see what I mean?

If I see — the same thing — violence. They are all violent children. Right, sir? At the present. I don’t know — God knows why it has happened — TV — you follow? — the whole business; modern civilization is tremendously violent, and those children are violent. So I want to change… violence must be wiped out of their blood because — you know? — violence and affection can’t exist together. So it’s important and now I’m going to find out how to get totally free of violence.

I don’t think you feel it strong enough, the importance of it. Sorry. Right, sir? You say, ‘I need time; I’m not changed; you’re not changed.’ You follow? Now, if you don’t feel the importance of being without violence, why don’t you? What’s wrong with you? You follow, sir? Not you — I mean, what’s wrong? Why aren’t we… why don’t we feel the repulsion against violence? Not as a reaction; it’s something terrible to human beings to have this violence. Why don’t we feel it? What’s wrong with us? And if we don’t feel the importance, how do you expect that poor chap… You follow, sir?

DM: But…

K: So it’s not a question of time. It’s a question of perception, seeing that it’s true. I mean, seeing if I’m greedy, not all the million explanations why I’m greedy. I’m greedy. If I see the fact, I’m out, it’s finished. In the same way, if I see the absolute beauty and the necessity and the dignity of consideration, really see it as I see that chair, then time doesn’t exist. I will show the boy what… I’ll talk to him; I’ll change him; I’ll spend days at it — you follow? Not days; I’ll spend my energy on that. You see, our tradition says, ‘Take time, old boy’ — right?. That’s our tradition and I’m not a traditionalist. Sorry. So I say that’s one of my conditionings, to accept a tradition of violence.

So can we three, and the others who will come to help us… Sir, the moment you have something real, burning, they’ll come. You must have the nectar, then the bees will come. If you haven’t got it, they won’t come; you can whistle in the dark. So if you three say, ‘Look, it’s tremendously important in the psychological change of the student that he should have no violence, no word of violence’ — sir, if you have it you will see in no time they’ll have it.

So, what time is it, sir?

Q: It’s now twelve to four.

K: So can we start with those three children — a school with three children (laughs), I love that — can you start with those three children, bearing in mind that though reading, writing is important, but what is far more important is the psychological change, can we from today be concerned with that and see? Sir, does it interest you, or do you think it’s important, that they should change? Not superficially, not new gadgets and new fashion, but deeply the mind change? Are you interested in that?

DM: Of course, sir.

K: Now, if you’re interested in it, what will you do? How will you approach it? You have three boys, three students or three children under your care, your responsibility. If you say that is important, more important than anything else, how will you set about it? This is much more difficult than teaching mathematics, much more difficult than helping them how to cook. But this requires an extraordinary sense of perception. You understand, sir? Perception in the sense seeing what the world is, seeing one’s relationship to the world, oneself, which is the product of the world, as they are the product of the world — the children are part of the world — so the child is like me. I don’t know if you… The child is the product of the world, like me as I am the product of the world, so there is not difference between him and me profoundly. I’m older, taller and all the rest of the nonsense, but profoundly the same movement is at work. Now, can I stop that movement? I don’t know what it means to stop it. I don’t know what it means to end it — all the rest of it; I don’t know. And the child doesn’t know. But the child and me are essentially the same: we are the product of this rotten civilization. And I see the importance of this. Now, can I communicate this feeling to the child?

ML: Sir, I think for an older child this makes some sense, but for the younger child I don’t think they have the capacity to even connect with this.

K: No, I wouldn’t even talk about it to the child.

ML: Well…

K: They wouldn’t even know what you’re talking about.

ML: They haven’t the foggiest idea.

K: They wouldn’t even know what you’re talking about.

Q: But they can talk about themselves to you.

K: No, I’m working at something else; you’re missing it. I can talk to those children blue in the face about consideration. They wouldn’t even know what that word meant. But I’m not talking to those children. They are my responsibility. They are like me. I’m not dividing myself as the student and me; we are both the same. And how shall I… what shall I do? It’s my responsibility. What shall I do to bring a change? You see, you haven’t applied your mind to it. That’s what I’m pushing against.

(Pause)

DM: One has applied one’s mind to this question.

K: Then what? If you have applied, you must have an answer. Sorry, I’m not personally questioning you. If you have applied, it must have shown something. Ah, no, don’t turn… Don’t say, ‘I don’t know,’ but if you apply, like anything, if you apply your mind, you must have an answer. We applied, sir, this afternoon at lunch time; we said what does Ojai stand for? You follow? With us, Ojai, in the sense, us, what does it stand for? What is it for? School, this, that, but basically what it is for? Probably we never ask that question. If you ask it, there is an answer to it. But we ask it circumstantially: ‘If this is granted, if this doesn’t happen…’ — then we’ll ask the question. We don’t ask the question and find the answer and then apply. Sorry, I shouldn’t be talking all the time. This is what happens wherever I go. (Laughter) You come and…

DM: Sir, isn’t it precisely the unique thing about the kinds of things that you generally talk about, the stopping of the movement of the ‘me’, is it not the case that many of us, everyone in this room and thousands of others have applied their minds to that question and have not found an answer? Applied their minds at length.

K: No, because, sir, I think it is because we are not serious enough to ask it. Look, I want to find out what is the meaning of Ojai. You understand? Ojai, not the valley; I’m talking of the trustees, the school, the whole thing, what is it for? You understand, sir? I have found the answer. It will take time to discuss it with all of you, but I’ve got… because I’ve — you follow? — pushed it. My way of pushing is, I’ve put the question — I’ll tell you — I’ve put the question; I’ve put it not because somebody says this, that and the other — I want to find out. You understand? Wait, sir, wait. I want to find out. So I put the question and leave everything aside. You’re telling me what — I listen to you — what Ojai meant, the school, ten different things, but I won’t… the question is so important it keeps the periphery open. I wonder, am I making it clear?

DM: Not that last part about the periphery.

K: The central question is far more important than your answers, because you are not putting the central question.

DM: Which is?

K: Which is: what does Ojai mean? You understand? So I’m asking you: what is the school for? Because I’ve got a couple of children; I need to educate them; therefore I want a school; but what is the school for? There are a million schools in America.

DM: We know that, don’t we? That’s what we’ve been discussing. The school is for…

K: But do you know it? Or you have been told? Or you said, ‘My God, this is the only thing to do’? You see the difference? I mean if I had a son, I would be… that should be… I would be tortured sending him to these rotten schools, to turn out like the rest of the million Americans — not Americans or Europeans or Indians. So I say now, what shall I do with that child, with my son? I would be, you know, it would be a tremendous responsibility. I’d find an answer. So if we all, all of us, if we say, ‘Look, this is important. We exist as a school, not only as a school but personally, collectively, to see that we are psychologically changed, both in the school and out of it,’ then if that is really, profoundly important, you will find, you will see what takes place.

If you feel that, sir, then you and I can discuss what to do — you follow? — how to approach the child, who is me. I’m not going to study his character; he is conditioned because he’s just like me. So I’m going to… I have got to find an answer for this. So my question is, first: are the whole group of us — here there are no trustees and there are trustees; here there are teachers; all the lot of us together, who are in the same boat, are we really interested — not ‘interested’ — is it an urgent demand, a challenge, to say that we must bring about a psychological change not only in the school but in ourselves and therefore in the school, together? And I assure you we’ll create a marvellous school. People will come then. Now, what have you to give? You follow, sir? This is something new; they will come if you…

Well, you talk now for a change, all of you.

(Pause)

You see, sir, in talking over with Balasundaram, the head of the Rishi Valley school, we talked not only 5 to 12 but from 12 to 18. It will be the same movement — you understand? — not after 12 we say, ‘Sorry…’ but it’s the same movement. But in Rishi Valley things are different because there are several villages, uneducated, dirty, starving, everything, and the whole school is going to be responsible for all this, for the villages and all the rest of it. Here you can’t. But you never know — you understand? — if you have real students who will go out and talk to these stupid… You follow?

MZ: I’m not sure that you made it clear the extra part of that plan which was that…

K: Explain to them. Explain to them.

MZ: (Inaudible)

K: She was there, sir, taking notes so she’s got it almost by heart. I’ll correct it if it is wrong.

MZ: We will make copies of the notes, if you would like, sir.

K: Yes, yes. Give it to them.

MZ: I brought them back with me, photocopied them.

K: Yes, I know.

MZ: But the general gist of it was that the 5 to 12, there would be the academic studying but the emphasis is on the psychological change. Then in the 12 through — I’m not sure it was up to 18 — then really pour it on academically.

K: All subjects, not one subject or two.

MZ: It won’t be that they will be able to choose their subjects. There will be certain definite subjects required so that they will arrive at the age of 18 having achieved the necessary level academically.

K: But also know all the subjects a little. You follow?

MZ: Yes. There won’t be the way in choice that there is in many schools today. So that by the time the student reaches that age they’ve had all the academics, but they had this particular period of psychological development and freedom in that first section.

Q: I see.

MZ: And then for certain students — and maybe there will only be, say, ten chosen a year, who have the qualities — they will be kept on to work particularly in relation to the valley, the sociological part of helping the valley, helping them with the farm, with education, with health, with all the qualities of life that the villages are so deficient in.

Q: In the entire alley?

MZ: In the entire valley.

Q: This is Rishi Valley?

MZ: This is Rishi Valley, you see. There are, Mark, how many villages?

ML: Twelve villages. Twelve.

MZ: Very small villages.

ML: And about two thousand population, the villages.

MZ: So that the school will be making a vital contribution to the life of everybody living in that; it won’t be just a school for wealthy children and starving villagers all around. It will be helping the quality of life at all levels; amongst those, particularly chosen ones who may stay on another two years before going on to whatever their lives can be, like the university…

K: Or they may not go on at all…

MZ: Or maybe they stay, but they will be maybe forty in all.

K: The chosen few! Sorry. (Laughs)

MZ: Out of the student body of roughly two hundred, I think they want to freeze it…

K: 240.

MZ: Is it two hundred? I think, roughly. But these, say, forty of those students who will stay on with that particular emphasis on their activities, and also for the study too, but it’s sort of part of their lives which they can devote to the general wellbeing — and then either they leave or they go on or they stay or whatever, but that is the three things in the school.

ML: It will change the valley tremendously because there’s always been that split between the school and the valley.

MZ: Yes, they must do away with that.

DM: May I ask, what do you do with the student who comes at age 12 who has missed the age 5 to 12 period?

K: That we have to consider.

MZ: It doesn’t happen as much at Rishi Valley, does it, Mark?

ML: No, they limit the enrolment to the younger ones; and in fact, they have a cut-off age when they will not accept children, I think, beyond the last three standards, so… (inaudible)

K: We might say… here we might say, ‘Sorry, we’ll only accept…’ — you follow?

DM: The younger ones.

MZ: One has to work it out in terms of one’s own locality.

ML: Yes, it’s different everywhere.

Q: It’s much better, I think, the younger ones.

K: Because if they remain with us till 18 — you follow? — you can do marvellous…

ML: In India it’s easier because they tend to stay longer in the school. In this country everyone moves in four months.

K: I know.

MZ: They jump from place to place.

K: Now we won’t accept them. What will make all these… After all…

ML: Well, this is another reason to have boarders, I think, here, yes.

K: We’ll say, ‘Look, we’ll accept, and they must remain with us.’ Sir, we’ll make our own rules. What the heck? Not rules, our own demand.

Well, we’d better stop because we have to go. Now, sir, we’ll meet again often. What will you do in the next few days? Work this out.

ML: Yes. I think we’ll continue to meet.

K: You continue and also find out from Dr Rusch and other teachers whether they’ll drop everything and come — you follow? — not just one of the things.

MZ: Is Dr Rusch — excuse me, sir — still running his school in the bus? Is that still going on?

ML: Yes, he’s there but he’s more concerned now of being the assistant dean of the university. That’s a big new responsibility.

MZ: Yes.

ML: So we have to talk about it anyway.

K: And also Mr Lilliefelt met some professor who seems very clear and all the rest of it.

ML: (Inaudible)

EL: Yes.

ML: Yes.

EL: Well I think he would be a very good one to bring out and discuss and consult with. We know him very well.

K: Let’s all meet him, me included, because I want…

EL: Of course, you must. The thing is, as you suggested, they’re probably free only on weekends since they work, or maybe they have a day off during the week.

K: Yes, we’ll meet on weekends, doesn’t matter.

EL: It’s a matter of telephoning, yes.

ML: Yes. I think he would be a good one; he’s had practical experience teaching.

EL: Well he seems to be interested in applying what he’s doing.

K: He might suggest somebody who will… etc.

EL: Yes, he may know other people.

Q: Some of his students seem to be interested in just this. They’re adults and they would like to teach this way.

K: We’ve got the land, we must do something. Would it be possible to rent a house for all this?

EL: Well, Krishnaji, when you talk about renting a house, we run into the same problems we have here.

K: Oh, sorry, sorry — stupid of me.

Q: But is there any problem about using that top room, Erna?

EL: Well I would think that if you’re going to use the room down there in addition to what you’ve got here, it would be better to use the downstairs and move part of the office upstairs rather than children going up and down.

Q: I was thinking just of the room over your office here.

EL: Well I mean that.

Q: Yes.

EL: I mean that. I would think it would be much better to use the downstairs room where the office is now and move the office upstairs. Then the people who work there can go up and down stairs rather than the children. I wouldn’t like to see children running up and down there.

Q: True.

EL: Don’t you think the ground floor would be much better?

Q: Definitely.

AP: That’s right.

EL: It has the in-and-out rooms in case of problems. Then I think…

AP: Correct.

Q: Because that seems to me additionally important if we’re to have the younger ones coming, that you need a place…

K: Then where does Mrs Zimbalist and I stay?

ML: Well this could only be after this spring, say.

EL: It can’t be this spring; it can’t be immediately. This would have to be after next… (inaudible)

K: Oh Lord.

MZ: It would be the same… (inaudible)

EL: The conferences and so on; we can’t do that.

MZ: …next winter because you still would be here. I mean, it would… your question would apply a year from now.

K: Oh!

ML: Unless we initiate some building.

EL: And after all, you haven’t got your eight students yet that you can’t handle here, and even if you have, you can still use the Araya Vihara building which is…

DM: Wait, Mark, I thought there was a possibility of accepting a number of younger students for January.

ML: Yes, but we have no teacher, no space, so…

DM: But we have just found that we could have the space for January. We can have the students…

EL: Yes, but, Mark, you can’t have — or David — three students of one age and three students of another.

ML: The other problem is all winter that these buildings here will be in use; because Mary and Krishnaji are here; we don’t have the space to do that.

MZ: Well, we’ll be here…

K: We can arrange something, Maria. You can use… we can all… we can both stay in these two rooms.

MZ: Yes, we can. I talked to Erna about it and if I can use another bathroom somewhere, I can use…

K: Oh, no… (inaudible)

EL: Well, Krishnaji, I don’t think this is an immediate… it can’t be an immediate problem because you’re not going to get… you’ve got two more definite children, isn’t it?

ML: Definite.

K: When? By when?

ML: For January. They’re arriving…

K: Oh, well…

ML: But they will fit into the class, present class. They’re older children.

Q: But it works the other way around too, Erna, because if somebody immediately appears, the right people, and we have to say, ‘Well, not for six months,’ we maybe lose the people.

K: I think that’s wrong.

Q: I think we should be ready before, don’t you, Krishnamurti?

K: I agree.

AP: I think we should.

Q: With just one more room or something, somewhere?

K: I agree. I agree. I am for…

MZ: There’s nothing that can be rented that one would get a permit on a temporary basis for?

EL: You see, we could have got the temporary permit here and they said… it’s a great expense going through this permit thing. You have to go… environmental impact before it; you have to do all that, which is thousands of dollars. They said, ‘If you’re going to really have a school down there, make your application for down there and you can operate here.’

MZ: Well, couldn’t we still use that formula for some…

EL: You mean for two more schools or for another school?

MZ: No, for another temporary building where you can have the school in one building. Is there anything that anybody at the valley knows of or has seen?

EL: You mean rent another house?

MZ: Yes. Because building is going to be terribly slow. Even if we start right away, I’m sure that we wouldn’t have it ready for next September.

Q : You see, the parents get desperate.

K: I know, yes.

Q: I’ve met a certain number of young parents and you wouldn’t want them all but some of them perhaps you would, and they are the very ones that say, ‘But I can’t wait, this child is growing.’

K: I quite agree.

AP: And it’s better to have more than three… (inaudible)

EL: I think you’ve got to do it here. I can’t see how you can function in two different places.

AP: I think the downstairs here…

EL: I mean, just the physical transportation, moving about.

Q: I think it would be ideal then, but those children do have to — I think; tell me please, educators — don’t those two, the very young ones that might come in now, younger ones, should be in a class separately from the older ones.

DM: Must be.

Q: Because the understanding of the one is quite different to the understanding of the other.

ML: Oh, yes. And they need completely different environments.

AP: Well if we have the downstairs?

Q: That extra room there would be marvellous for the young ones and that really could be made ready in case you get three or four. You never know, really.

AP: At least we should be ready for it.

Q: But you have to be able to say, ‘We’re open.’ You have to be able to take the children if they’re that age and you want them.

K: Ruth, there’s going to be a gathering of the scientists and, you know…

Q: Yes, sir.

K: So where… we said the Bohms could stay up there. And bear that in mind, all up there too.

ML: I think it’s quite a bit just to think about for this year, with all the conferences and the talks and…

K: It’ll be the same next year, sir, don’t fool yourself.

MZ: It will be the same next year. If there were any kind of building that would really serve, temporarily, yes, but big enough so that you can have a viable number of students in it until we can get a proper thing built in the west…

K: It’ll be the same next year and the year after.

ML: Well there are many parents who said they’re interested for September of ’76 because we had said that we would be in the Oak Grove by then.

AP: I don’t think we will be there.

MZ: If we had… if we okayed those plans and then we all came…

K: Oh, no, that is a monster.

MZ: …today, I don’t think we would be able to open there in September.

AP: That’s right. I don’t think so either.

Q: No, we’ve got to find some more space for these ones; there’s no doubt. Something’s going to happen, break open.

MZ: What happened to that school that the Hookers and the… (inaudible) Was that a school or…

EL: You can’t do it there either.

ML: That building was condemned.

DM: What about the guest house?

ML: Your little guest house?

DM: Yes.

ML: Well that’s still part of Arya Vihara and that’s substandard. They won’t allow us to do it.

MZ: It’s substandard. Even more substandard probably now.

K: Which is that?

DM: The little guest house where David lives.

MZ: That’s the one that has the foundation…

K: Which is the guest house?

DM: The one next to the kitchen, next to Arya Vihara.

MZ: Next to the garage.

K: Ah, next to the garage.

EL: Mark, I thought…

**–** **END –**