K School Discussion 8, Brockwood Park, 7 October 1971

Krishnamurti: How did it go off this morning? What happened? You remember what we talked about? We said that before you came into the room, into the library, you should look at everything, look, give your attention to everything that you see, the people, your friend, the people that go by, the trees, the flowers, the birds, the sky, the grass and the hoar-frost this morning, you know, see everything, give complete attention to it, and when you come into the room you are still in that state of attention — right? And then when you sit quietly that attention becomes much more acute, much more vital. And there is the gathering of all energy. Did it happen to you? Or is it the first day and therefore a little bit of a… What happened, would you tell me? No? All right.

Student: I paid attention too much to nature in the morning I forgot it was the meeting time.

K: More difficult in the morning?

S: He forgot.

K: Oh, you forgot the meeting. That’s all right. You know what energy is? When you play that is a form of energy, isn’t it? When you talk that is a form of energy. And when you walk, when you do anything it is really and expression of energy — right? Either that energy can be contradictory or harmonious — right? And for most of us energy is broken up, it isn’t a total movement, a unitary movement. Do you understand what I mean? It is one natural flow. But in that there are various contradictions, oppositions — right? Haven’t you noticed it? Em? So what happens when energy is broken up? Say when you are playing, cricket or tennis, or volley ball or throwing that disk, if you don’t do it easily, harmoniously, you know, with grace and with ease there is a resistance, isn’t there? So that resistance is the opposition, opposing the natural flow of energy. Are you following all this? Oh lord! Am I conveying anything to you?

You know most people, when you are young as well as old, we want ten different things at the same time. No? I want to go up to London, I want to play, I want to do something else, I don’t want to study and yet I must study and I’d like to go out for a walk and I like to do something — you know there is always this criss-cross movement in us, isn’t there? Each desire is opposed by another desire. So there is this breaking up of energy all the time in us, mental energy, the capacity to think clearly, to be really honest. And it is very difficult to think clearly because we don’t know what it is to be clear because we look, we think in terms of conclusions, opinions, conforming to a pattern, so there is always in this mental energy a wastage, isn’t there? I don’t know if you have noticed it, right sir? Do talk, discuss with me. And physically too. We waste our energy if we don’t give physically its full scope. If I play, I play — you follow? I have played a great deal in my life, golf and tennis, a great deal, especially golf, three rounds a day — you know what that means? And when I played there was nothing else but that. Then your body goes with the play, then there is no resistance, there is no withholding, you give your whole attention to the physical movement. Say when you do Yoga — I don’t know what you do, stand on your head? — or is that too far advanced? Stand on your head, do you? No? All right. When you stand on your head that requires attention, doesn’t it? That requires care, how you go up, how you place your hands, how much pressure you put on the elbows — you follow? — all that you are paying attention to. And when you are not attentive there is a contradiction — you follow? There is a resistance — right? And when you pay attention when you are doing it, it comes much easier because energy then is not wasted by a contradiction, by a resistance, by laziness. Right? And emotionally, you know, feeling, when you feel something strongly there is always an opposing feeling also. You have a reaction and a counter-reaction. Now, and that is much more difficult to understand, the contradiction in our feelings. Should we indulge completely in a feeling? You understand? ‘I don’t like you’ — (I am just saying that — it’s not like that, I like you but I am just saying) ‘I don’t like you’. Should I yield to that energy completely, should that energy flow out? Which means hate, jealousy, anger, dislike — you follow? — all that is involved in saying, ‘I don’t like you’. Now should I indulge in the expression of that energy? You understand sir? And religions, society, culture have said, ‘Don’t yield, control’ — right? ‘Because if you yield to hate you will destroy others, so control, hold back, suppress your anger, don’t yield to it, it is immoral, it is unethical, it is ungodly’ — right? That is what the whole society has been saying right through the world for centuries and centuries. And against that we go, there is reaction, ‘Why should I suppress.’ I feel angry, I dislike you, I tell you. Which is another form of saying, by telling another ‘I dislike you, somehow we think it is over. You follow? But it isn’t over, it goes on festering — right? I don’t know if you are following all this?

BJ: One finds a release when one does that.

K: Is it a release? When you tell me, ‘I really dislike you’, what takes place?

BJ: Well, often discussion arises out of that or …

K: Or? What? I withdraw. When you tell me, ‘I dislike you’, I kind of — you follow? — my nerves are affected, physically there is a shrinking and a withdrawal. It may help you but — you follow? You have struck me. So should you express that at all? Or should you have such a feeling at all? You understand? You see we have that feeling, then we want to express it, in expressing we feel a relief but we don’t consider what happens to the other person. He is also nervous, his nerves are on edge and you come along and say, ‘I dislike you’.

So should that feeling ever arise — you follow? Not, having a reason, what to do with it — you follow sir? — but should that feeling at all come into one’s life? Because that is a waste of energy — you follow? I wonder if you understand.

S: A contradiction.

K: It is contradictory. You follow? You dislike me, you tell me, it releases you, at least you think it does, but it has affected me. So I am going to take it out of you on a future occasion — right? So the point is should I, should that feeling rise at all? Because if it arises it is a contradiction of that energy of feeling — you follow? No?

BJ: The fact is that it does arise sometimes.

K: Therefore how — consider this — it arises and the effect of it on you, on the other, and how to deal with it after it has arisen — right? And that is only a cure, isn’t it? What to do about it. But is there a preventive which will not allow this feeling to arise? I don’t know if I am expressing myself clearly? Are you following me? Somewhat?

S: It is related to what makes people feel dislike.

K: Just listen to me first. You dislike me because for various reasons, I smell, I eat wrongly, I look strange, I am this, I am that — you follow? I have said something or other. You dislike me. In expressing that dislike you feel relieved — right? But it has left a mark on me — right? Are you following this? Now I am asking myself: how — to live harmoniously means energy to flow completely without contradiction, without opposition, without resistance. How is that to be done? You understand my question sirs? You are all too silent, I don’t know where I am with you.

DP: Does it mean not allowing ourselves to react to anything?

K: No, no, no. Not react. I see the fact, the fact, that when I dislike you and the expression of that dislike brings a certain relief to me. I see that fact. And I also see the fact that in expressing my dislike and putting it into words to you, also hurts you — right? I see these two facts. They are unavoidable. I see these two facts and I say to myself, ‘Why should these two opposing facts exist at all?’ You understand sir? Right? So I say, ‘Is there a way of never letting this feeling of dislike arise?’ Because if that arises then there are many, many contradictions in it — right? Are you following? Therefore I want to live a life in which life is completely harmonious, in which energy flows easily without any restriction, without any resistance, without any contradiction. And I see like and dislike, the expression, is a contradiction of that — right? Right sir? So how is this dislike, the feeling of this, why should it arise at all?

S: Because you are confused.

K: Wait, wait, wait, wait. That is an easy way out.

S: I would say that likes and dislikes are basic condition.

K: Which means what? Go on, explore it a little bit more. It may not be. Don’t stick to condition — you follow? Don’t hold on to an opinion, investigate. Why should dislike — we are not talking about like — why should dislike arise? Because you have long hair, brown, purple, smell, do this and do that, why should I dislike? What does it matter? That is what you are, why should I dislike?

S: Because you have an image of your idea of thinking.

K: No, is that my image? Why should I have the image that you should have short hair?

S: Because you want everybody to be the same.

K: Which means what?

S: You have an idea of yourself as being most…

K: No. I am a slave to the image which I have created about hair — right? That people should have short hair. Full stop. Why should I have it? Because I have been brought up on it. Right? I have been brought up on it and I see etc., etc. And I see also long hair means you have to keep it very clean, long hair becomes very dirty very quickly and looks, if it is dirty and not clean, ugly. See both sides of it. It isn’t just my opinion — right? So I see that when I — there is a dislike it is based on some image which I have — right?

MZ: If one recoils from something that a person does, say they shout a great deal, one withdraws from the person because of some physical fact such as tremendously shouting or something.

K: No. Someone has hit me, somebody has hit me — right? Physically has hit me, given me a blow, that is a fact. What shall I do? Go into this very, very carefully. You hit me, that is a fact. And I have an image about you and say, ‘By Jove that boy will hit me again. So what happens between you and me, what happens?

S: The image.

K: Not only. The image remains though I try to be friendly to you. I pretend because I think I must not — you follow, all the rest of it. Why should I form an image when you hit me, it is a fact you have hit me. I don’t like to be hit. It is an ugly thing to do, it is a beastly thing to do, but you have done it. Why should I have an image about it? Knowing when there is an image there is a division, there is a conflict and then hatred comes out of it and all the mess begins, which society and culture maintains — you follow? So why should I, when you hit me physically hit in annoyance or whatever you like, create an image? Why can’t I meet that blow without creating an image? You follow? Now go on investigate, sir, with me. Oh Lord!

S: What do you do, sir, if you find many people starving to death?

K: Wait, wait, my dear chap. There are more than five millions, millions are starving in India, of course in Europe starving doesn’t exist, there is always Welfare State and this and that, in India, in Asia millions are starving. That is not our problem. What I will do, my problem is to see that I live properly so that the millions don’t starve. Right? Millions starve because nationality, sovereign governments opposing each other, sovereign governments having armies of their own, spending millions and millions and millions and killing. And all this contributes to starvation — right? And it is no good saying, ‘What can I do about starvation’ and yet be nationalistic, Hindu, and all the rest of the ugly business. Right?

So my question is: how am I, when you hit me to prevent the formation of an image? When you physically hit me, call me a name, call me a fool, you’re an ass — you follow? — how am I to prevent that image being formed? Go on sir, search it out. I’ll tell you. Look at it, examine it. This is your problem, because we are living in a community where we must live together, with a tremendous feeling of vitality, energy, beauty, otherwise you just become shoddy little human beings. Now, you hit me in this community, you tell me I am a blasted idiot — you follow? — I react because physically you have struck me, my nerves react. Then the brain takes over and says, ‘Be careful that man is going to hurt you’ — right? And therefore the image is formed to protect myself against you, so I am very careful now. Or I hit you back and that of course leads somewhere else.

So there is the nervous response, there is the response of the brain. And out of that response there is the image — right? Now, then if we are living together in a small community, or in the world, it’s the same, if I have an image about you relationship is not possible — right? Now how am I, how is the brain not to create an image, though it does react? You can’t help reacting because you have hurt me — you follow? Go on sir, find out. You apply your brains to find this out because this is as important as mathematics, if not much more. Look at it. If I say to you, ‘I love you’, see the response — you follow? — you also have an image! ‘I love you’, the nerves feel soothed, the body says, ‘How nice it is to be loved by somebody’, the brain takes over and says, ‘My friend I want to be with you’ and I kind of purr! (laughter) And that is also an image. You are my friend and he is not my friend. We are English, they are French. It is the same principle — you follow?

Now how am I — put it as a mathematical problem, right, sir, right? — how am I, knowing that my nerves have reacted strongly because, you know, I have been hit personally, I have been hit very much, and how am I to prevent the image being made, because the moment I have an image it is a waste of energy, it isn’t living wholly — you follow? — there are various images in my mind, therefore distraction, wastage of energy — right? So how am I to do this? Go on sir. How will you solve this problem?

BJ: I would see very clearly that this image, these images destroys the free flowing of energy.

K: Don’t you see it? How do you see it? As an idea, or as a fact? Because fact is one thing and idea is another. I may fear a snake or a tiger because that is still, I haven’t seen a tiger, I may be imaginatively afraid of it, but when seeing the tiger is one thing and imagining that I am frightened of a tiger which I have never seen is another. Now do you see very clearly as factually that the formation of an image is terribly destructive?

S: How do you go from seeing it as an idea to seeing it as a fact?

K: What sir?

S: You can’t see it as an idea, you must see it as a fact.

K: Do you see it as a fact?

S: Usually not. Usually we don’t see it as fact.

K: But why don’t you see it as a fact?

S: We don’t resolve it.

K: No, sir, it’s not a question of resolving it. Why don’t you see it as a fact? You hit me, the nerves react, they convey to the brain that you have been hurt, and the brain says, ‘By Jove, he is a dangerous man’, the image is formed and destroys our relationship.

S: But how can you stop the reaction of the nerves?

K: I don’t say that. You are bound to react. When you come upon the fact that a precipice is dangerous — right? Otherwise it is constantly present.

S: You don’t think about it all the time.

K: No. You don’t. So you begin to see certain facts are necessary to remain, other facts are not necessary. I don’t know if you are meeting all this? Right? The fact that the tiger might kill, that must be kept in mind, that image; but why should I have the image about you when you have hit me, though the nerves react and all the rest of it? The image that you have hurt me will not exist if I see the danger that it destroys relationship, then it won’t, you understand? For me to live with you in right relationship is far more important, far more urgent than my image about you when you have hurt me. So — you follow?

S: You can’t have relationship with somebody who has hit you.

K: I can’t? How do you know?

S: I think there are three things you can do. Hit him back which is …

K: Wait you hit me, I hit you back. You are stronger, therefore you knock me down, full stop! But I am going to hate you for it, I am going to dislike you for it. That is one fact. The second is that I might never come near you — right? Because you have hit me and I don’t want to come near you. But when you are living in a community you can’t do that because I am coming up against you at every minute, in a class, when we eat together — you follow? — I can’t say, ‘I will not see you’. I can say, ‘I will not see you’ to somebody outside. So I have only one problem: the creation of images. Right?

MZ: Is the image always a result of one’s own reactions? Because if I see anybody in this room I will instantly recognise them.

K: Of course, of course.

MZ: Therefore the data about that person is instantly available in my memory. But what is this quality that makes that harmful? This is the image-making activity which prevents relationship.

K: Which is more important? Which is essential in life? Relationship — right? Right? Relationship is the most important thing in life. To have right relationship with each other, specially in a community of this kind. We must all pull together, we must all live together. When I go into that room in the morning, the feeling must be there. If you say, ‘Well I’m damned bored with the whole thing’ — you don’t — right? So relationship is the most important thing in life. Because if we have no relationship with you there is only a relationship in contradiction, in battle, which the world is. So I don’t want to live like that. So I say relationship is the most essential thing in life and I see any image formed prevents that relationship, and therefore relationship being much more important, the image becomes unimportant. Therefore, though my nerves react, the brain remembers, the image won’t be formed because the other thing is far more important. You get what I am talking about? Do you see?

S: There is the point that it hurts.

K: It hurts. Obviously it hurts. I have been knocked down, all right, it hurts. Not only physically but my dignity — you follow sir? Human dignity is kicked in the mud.

S: But isn’t it the very feeling of dignity which creates…

K: No, you have physically hurt me.

S: Yes, dignity in the sense of…

K: Not me, human beings behaving like that hurts. That a human being, grown up, thoughtful — you follow me? — supposed to be educated, hits me, what an incredible thing it is. You follow? That a human being should behave like that though I may have done wrong. You follow all this, sir?

So, I see relationship requires the movement — the movement of total energy in which there is no image-making, or contradiction — you are following all this? Oh sir, do see the beauty of this.

MZ: I’m sorry to belabour the point, Krishnaji, but…

K: Belabour it.

MZ: But it is not clear, it seems to be the difference between memory or fact and image. Where the action of one is harmful, where the action of the other is perfectly normal.

K: Yes, yes. What are you belabouring?

MZ: If you say you recognise a person there is a certain memory factor that comes in.

K: Obviously.

MZ: That is just factual.

K: Factual. But why should it have all the emotional overtones in it?

MZ: That’s it. Is it an emotional, is it the reaction?

K: Look, my lady, look it is fairly simple. You have knocked me down. Physically you have hurt me. Why should I carry this image?

MZ: Is it an image that I remember that you have done it?

K: No. But you have hurt me but that is forgotten.

MZ: But an image …

K: You follow, I am not interested in that any longer, that you have hurt me.

MZ: Well it may be sentiment. You may have had a dispute and I may need to remember the fact of that dispute.

S: I think it is a reaction to the fact; it’s not memory itself but reaction to that.

K: Reaction to the fact. Yes, that is the difference, quite right, sir. That is, the fact is one thing, and the reaction to the fact is another — right? I won’t react, the fact is more important.

S: But I have to want to have relationship.

K: Yes.

S: The repetition of that reaction too.

K: Therefore I am going to be careful. I am going to watch but I am not going to create an image. Because I want to live a life of energy in which there is no battle, there is no contradiction, an energy that is flowing easily, like a river, you know. And there is beauty in that.

MZ: Can you say then that an image is a fact plus one’s own suggestive reaction?

K: Yes. One’s own reaction to the fact. And the fact is there, it is that you have knocked me down. The reaction to that is the image — right? So I say, ‘All right, why should I have the image, you have knocked me down, I am going to be very careful, watch you’. I am watching myself, I am not going to react — you follow? It brings vitality, not just say, ‘I have an image’. I don’t know if you understand this?

S: But this image, this reaction image comes about when a person has already a certain idea that I shouldn’t be knocked down.

K: That is also. I am a man, I am this, I am that, that is my image of myself which is the indignity of being hurt. That image of myself. I am bored with images — you follow? I don’t want to have an image about myself, or about you who have hurt me.

S: Can one be free of all images and therefore…

K: That’s just it. But in relationship that is the most important thing — you follow? The image-making in relationship. But to have no image of any kind is another problem.

S: If one tackles that, wouldn’t one tackle this?

K: Of course, of course. But that’s much more complex.

DP: Because if I know you down surely you would avoid me, wouldn’t you?

K: What happens? Wait. What happens? If you knock me down repeatedly, what takes place? Go step by step into it, please, don’t jump to conclusions. What takes place? I don’t hit you back, you hit me because for various reasons, repeatedly you do that, what shall I do? Either I leave you because you are neurotic; or you are so aggressive, in yourself you are unfulfilled, you’re angry, for various things and you take it out of me by hitting me. Two things are involved, you and me. So you keep on hitting me, what shall I do? And I am not going to form an image. So what shall I do? Either I leave you and say, ‘Please, I am sorry, I cannot stand any more, your hitting me, I am leaving you’ — right? What is wrong with that?

BJ: Well you said that in a community …

K: Wait, wait. So what do we do? Watch it, sir. Go on. Go into it step by step. What shall I do?

BJ: If I yield repeatedly …

K: Wait, you hit me repeatedly over and over again. What shall I do? Verbally, physically, what shall I do? And I like it here, I want to live with all of you, happily. What shall I do?

BJ: Well I see the situation is such that I am always yielding. I am always being a doormat.

K: Wait. I may be the doormat but I am not going to have an image. That is the most important thing in my life. Because once I start building one image, images multiply. Right? So what shall I do? Go on, sir, investigate this thing.

S: Once you devote the energy towards relationship, the formation of the image becomes less important.

K: Yes, but what shall I do when you keep on hitting me, old boy? Face that.

MZ: You can still act without forming an image.

K: You are not answering my question. Sorry. You keep hitting me, I have apologised, I say, ‘I am awfully sorry I have done that’ but somehow in you the aggressive, the neurotic, the dominating thing exists and you must express it. You are neurotic when you hit somebody, verbally or otherwise. And you keep on doing it. What shall I do? Come on, sirs, what is the matter?

S: Well, you ask yourself, why I am being hit.

K: Oh, I know why I have been hit.

S: Yes, but why?

K: Why? Poor chap, or poor lady, she is built that way, she has got all kinds of complexes, all kinds of neurotic urges.

S: There must be something in me …

K: Wait. I have apologised. I have said if something I have done wrong, please correct it. I have been through all that.

BJ: Well then, I think I hit you back, that’s if I can.

K: Hit back. What takes place? The thing gets worse.

BJ: Not necessarily.

S: He will have more fear that he had before.

K: Of course, something else will take place. I don’t want to hit back. I am not aggressive.

S: It isn’t a matter of what one wants. If one says to himself I don’t want to be hit any more because one has decided it is more important to have relationship.

K: Yes, my darling sir, I agree but what shall I do? What is my next step? I have supported for a month being hit, at the end of it, what shall I do?

S: Try and make the other person see.

K: If the other person after the first hit doesn’t see it — you follow? — something is wrong with the bird! If you are dominating, if you are, you know, power-minded, we discuss it, don’t please, don’t dominate, we are working together, we are doing things together, we are playing together, don’t dominate. But you keep on, what shall I do? And we have talked about it and you say… What shall I do? I know it is in you, not in me now because I have done everything, I have walked ten miles, not just one mile with you, to bring about peace but this goes on and on and on. What shall I do?

BJ: If I think the best thing I can do, well then I’m stuck.

K: So what shall I do, sir? There must be some action where I won’t be hit any more because I don’t want to be hit — you follow? — it isn’t right to be hit. You may be neurotic, that is your affair. But I don’t want to be hit by you and yet I live here, in the same house.

You see in the world it is fairly simple. I don’t see you, I sell my house and move. Or I have no house, so I say, ‘Sorry,’ finished. I am not going to be beaten any more. But living together in a small community where we both of us feel the responsibility of relationship — see it, sir, both of us see the responsibility of having good relationship and you keep on destroying that relationship in spite of everything I have done. What shall I do?

S: If that person cannot say, ‘You have stolen from the community’.

K: Therefore what is taking place. Look at it. Go into it. So you say, ‘Please, my friend’, somebody comes along, you come along and say, ‘Please you are a disharmony in this community, buzz’ — right? What is wrong with that?

S: There is nothing wrong if images are not created.

K: Therefore what takes place? See what takes place. Go step by step into it.

S: You ask them to leave because of a fact not because of an image.

K: Yes. Which means what? You are unwilling for your own reasons, for your own neurotic etc., etc., reasons, you are unwilling to restrain, you get angry, the least little bit — you follow? So what do we do? Because it is a collective problem, not you and me. You understand? Because we are all living together, it is your relationship and my relationship with you together. And you misbehave and you keep on misbehaving — what shall I do?

S: I think you must accept.

K: But I have done it for a month old boy.

S: Accept it as a fact.

K: I do. But you don’t see it. Therefore it is a collective responsibility — you follow? — not just one person saying get out. It is a collective responsibility, and say that man, or that woman, or that boy is really quite impossible. No? It is your responsibility as well as mine — right?

S: But sir, that also is running away.

K: My darling sir, but what do you mean running away?

S: It’s running away from the problem, it is no solution.

K: Wait, wait. If you tell me, if you hit me and you say, ‘Look, I am so sorry I’ve hit you, somehow a screw is loose in me. Please let’s talk it over, discuss it, I will try’ — but if you don’t do that and every second you burst, or every five days, or every ten days, it becomes a… So together we must face this problem, it’s not you who hit me, you and I together we have to see this thing.

S: How can you do it if the other one doesn’t want to?

K: Then we can’t. So let’s come back. You see energy is an extraordinary thing in life. You know the more there is an uncontradicted, non-fragmented energy, the more physical vitality you have — right? Your mentality is much more alive, you think clearly and this whole movement becomes an extraordinary way of living. So when you go and sit for ten minutes in that room, the study, what is that room called, the library, you come there after a good night’s sleep — I hope you have a good night’s sleep — bathed and all the rest of it, and you come out on the veranda or of the room, and look at all the things about you, look with passion, not just casually, with vitality look. Then in that attentive look you are gathering energy — right? Do it, sir, do it and you will see it. And when you go into the library and sit quietly you are full of this energy without any contradiction — you follow? Then you can sit quietly for a very long time, without control, without all the rest of the ugly business.

S: Can one stop an action without dissipating energy?

K: I haven’t understood your question.

S: Can one stop an activity without dissipating energy?

K: Ah, I see what you mean. Can one stop activity without… Sir, all life is activity, isn’t it? Talking is an activity.

S: Yes, but say we are interested in a certain topic, talking, either see the timetable or it is time for stopping but we still haven’t finished it. And when we stop this our minds keep repeating, continuing this.

K: I understand your question. Look. When I have finished a discussion it is over.

S: But one you haven’t finished.

K: Then I’ll pick it up tomorrow. Why should I go on with it?

S: Because your mind is still on it.

K: Why is it on it? You haven’t finished it. So what takes place? By going over and over and over is it finished? It is only finished when both of us sit down and discuss it. You see, carrying over a problem is a waste of energy. But when you sit down and discuss it completely, as much as possible within a period of time, fixed time, you go as much as you can and at the end of it you are tired, your brain is tired, finished, and you pick it up again. And if you carry on thinking it won’t be new tomorrow. You follow?

S: If your thinking is still new and it is forcibly stopped at a certain point, by having to do something else. What do you do then?

K: You have to do something else. Now we have talked for over an hour and a half, we have to go to lunch. Then go to lunch and pay attention to lunch.

S: If you carry on thinking then you will be doing two things at once.

K: That’s it. That’s right. It’s a waste, you see. Do this, it is such fun you know, apart from… It’s really fun. To live a life that is completely harmonious and full of energy and easy energy. What is the time sir?

S: Twenty five to one.

K: Is that enough?

S: Well there is something I’d like to discuss. I see that like and dislike requires separation. And I see that like and dislike is a matter of opinion, every one has their own ideas. And what is ugly and what is beautiful. If that is true then if I have no image about things, is there anything beautiful and anything ugly?

K: I see. Now wait a minute sir. Like, is like anything to do with affection? Put that question, find out. Like, dislike. Has like any relationship with affection, with love?

S: No.

K: Don’t say, no or yes, go into it. And has beauty an image? The feeling of beauty does it come out of an image? Look at it — don’t answer it. I see a building, created in space. And I say, ‘How beautiful that is’ — right? Now that expression, ‘How beautiful that is’ is it born of an image?

S: Yes.

K: Wait. Don’t be quick sir. Explore. Is it born of an image? Or there is no image, but the perception of something which has proportion, depth, quality, workmanship, which has got such a shape to it.

S: Sir, isn’t it just a …

K: You are not listening to what I am saying. You are going on with your question. Just a minute.

S: Isn’t it that one has an image that is beautiful, or one you like, you are comparing with something else. Your conditioning comes in. You just look at it and say ‘It’s beautiful’ Nothing else comes in it.

K: That’s right. So, watch it. It is much more complex than that. Just look. You see that tree and do you say it is beautiful? Why do you say it is beautiful, who has told you? Or who has — or do you feel apart from everybody, apart from the images, a sense of beauty, not related to tree, building, people? You understand? The sense of beauty not looking at something.

S: If you really look it doesn’t happen only with trees.

K: You are not answering my question. Look, you see a building and you say, ‘How beautiful that is’ — is it because you have compared that building with other buildings and because it is a famous building built by Wren or Greek statue by Phialias and the rest and you say, ‘By Jove, what a marvellous thing that is’, because you have been told, there is the image that you have built about the man who has made it, and therefore you comply because that is the popular thing to say, ‘How beautiful it is’. Or do you have a sense of beauty irrespective of anything created or not created? Have you understood my question?

S: Sir, the sense of beauty has nothing to do with what one is looking at.

K: That’s just it. That’s just it. The sense of beauty has nothing to do with what you see outside.

S: It’s a state of attention.

K: Wait. Now what is that sense of beauty?

S: A state of harmony.

K: Darling, you are too quick in answering, think it out, go into it. What is that sense of beauty?

S: It’s vitality.

K: A little more complex, go into it sir. He said something just now, which is: he says if you have an image either about the tree or about yourself, that you are an artist, that you are a great man, that you are this or that, if you have an image about yourself then that image is going to dictate what is beautiful, depending on the culture, depending on the popularity of the statue, the painting, this or that. So the image you have about yourself or about the tree prevents the sense of beauty in which there is no image.

S: It prevents the very seeing.

K: Of course. So not to have image at all — you follow? — the image is the ‘me’. When there is no me there is the sense of beauty. Right? Have you got the sense of me? Therefore when you say that is beautiful you are just reacting to the image you have about what beauty is, which is based on your literature, on your culture, the pictures, the museums to which you have been exposed to. You daren’t ever say when looking at a Leonardo di Vinci’s paintings, ‘How ugly!.’ Or hearing Mozart, say, ‘My God, what a noise!’

So you see it is really quite extraordinary to have no image about oneself and therefore no image about the tree, is to have this sense of extraordinary beauty.

S: If you listen to a piece of music for the first time and you don’t like it, through repetition you suddenly, gradually come to like that music.

K: Yes, what happens. Go into it, sir. You don’t like Indian music, you hear it for the first time, you say, ‘What a noise’. And you listen to it — right? Three or four times, you begin to see something in it, not because you have been told, you listen. That means you are paying attention — right?

S: You were paying attention the first time.

K: The first time it was noise.

S: Well you were still paying attention to it.

K: Ah no, no.

S: You already have a notion to what western music is.

K: You have already a notion, exactly. You are used to western music and you suddenly are faced with Chinese music. Have you heard it for the first time? But you listen to it very carefully, the first time you didn’t, there was a reaction — you follow?

So you see, sir, that is why any image, outer or inner, is the emphasis of the ‘me’, the ego, the personality, all that, and that absolutely prevents the quality and the sense of beauty. Which means passion is not dependent or the cause of something. I won’t go into all this.

S: If my sense of beauty is not dependent on seeing, there is no difference between the beauty of the sun or the beauty of a tree.

K: Wait, wait a minute. I have no image myself, I have no image, therefore I have the sense of beauty, the feeling of beauty. And I see squalor, dirt, filth on the road, is that what happens? I see a piece of paper on the lawn, what happens? I pick it up. And I see filth on the road. I do something. Socially, do something, act. I don’t say, ‘Well I have a sense of beauty, I don’t see that’. (laughter.)

S: I understand that. My sense of beauty is not destroyed by what externally goes on. And if so, even if I close my eyes it is not even dependent on seeing at all.

K: Absolutely right. But the sense of the beauty which is yours is mine also. It is not my sense of beauty or your sense of beauty, or collective sense, it is beauty, the sense of beauty. To go into this is something passionate, you follow? It beats all books! I mustn’t say that because you are supposed to pass exams. (laughter)

Time to stop, isn’t it?