Public Talk 6, Madras, 10 December 1961

VI

TALK IN MADRAS

I would like to talk over with you a rather complicated problem, I mean by a problem something which we do not understand. Every problem seems to dog us and everything that we touch with our mind or with our heart becomes a problem. A problem is surely something which you haven’t resolved, a fact which you have not completely understood, and experience that pursues us with its unfinished, unresolved questions and answers.

And this evening, if we can, we will pursue something which demands all our attention. I mean by attention, not concentration at all. [Handwritten note in original report: ‘From here to the end of page 2, almost identical to page 3.’ WS-06]. Concentration, to me, is rather a narrowing, destructive process, though it has its utility at a certain level. But awareness is something entirely different, and I would like to discuss that at the beginning of this talk. Because, I feel we should understand what the difference is between awareness and concentration. We need desperately to change. The word situation and our own lives which are so mediocre, so dull, without much meaning demand it. We do need a radical deep change, a mutation rather than change.

And this change, this mutation cannot be brought about by thought because, as we discussed the other day, thought is very limited. Thought is merely a reaction of memory, and memory is very limited. The concentration of memory in action is not the same as awareness in action. Memory becomes a technique in action, the know-how. Having learnt something, I can carry it out — which most of us do as habit, mechanical knowledge, or capacity. But such capacity, knowledge and the know-how, restrict, limit our freedom I am using the words deliberately, knowing what they mean. If I may suggest, please listen in order to find out what the speaker has to say. Apparently, that is what you are here for to find out what he has to say. But to find out, do not begin to interpret, do not say, “This is what he means, that is what he does not mean”. Please listen to the very end of the talk. It is quite a difficult art to listen — to listen so attentively, not with knowledge, not with concentration — then you bring the whole memory of reactions, Whereas, attention is entirely different — which I will go into presently. Concentration you can have the more you have knowledge, capacity, The more capacity you have, you can force your concentration on something, to carry it out. You know action, through concentration — that is what most of us have. The mechanic, the lawyer, the engineer, the specialist, the technological expert — they concentrate in action, which is the result of knowledge, of experience, the know-how — so, that limits their awareness, their fullness, of life. Now if you will experiment with what I an talking as I am talking, you will see that there is a difference between concentration and awareness.

[Handwritten note in original report: Compare p. 1& 2′ WS-06] Concentration to me is, rather, narrowing destructive process though it is totality at a certain level — but awareness is something entirely different and I would like to discuss that at the beginning of this talk — because I feel we should understand what is the difference between awareness and concentration — because we need desperately change. The world situation and our own lives which are so mediocre — so dull — not without much meaning- we do need a radical — deep change — mutation — rather than change, and this change — this mutation cannot be brought about by thought because as we discussed the other day — thought is very limited -thought is merely a reaction of memory — and memory is very limited and the concentration of memory in action is not the same as awareness in action. Memory becomes a technique in action — the know-how — having learnt something and carry it out, which most of us do as habit -mechanical knowledge or capacity but such capacity — knowledge and the know-how restricts — limits our freedom. If I may suggest — is order to find out what the speaker has to say — apparently that is why you are here — to find out what — do not begin to interpret — do not say this is what it means and what it does not mean — please listen to the very end of the talk and it is quite a difficult task to listen — to listen so attentively, — not with concentration — then you bring the whole memory reactions — whereas attention is entirely different — which I will go along as what I want to talk about. Attention you can have — the more you have knowledge — capacity — concentration — you can have more capacity of your concentration of something to carry it out — you know action through concentration — that is what most of us have — mechanical -the lawyer — engineer — the specialist — the technological expert -they concentrate in action, which is the result of knowledge — of experience — know-how — so that limits their awareness — their fullness of life. Now if you will experiment what I am talking — you will see -that there is a difference between concentration and awareness.

Awareness is that state of mind which takes in everything — a crow flying across the sky — flowers in the trees — people sitting in front — their colours — awareness — being externally aware — which needs watching -observing — the shape of the leaf — the shape of the truth — the shape of the head of another — what he is doing — to be extensively aware -to be aware of the totality of one’s own being — not merely a section capacity — fragmentation capacity — of capacities fragmented and to pursue that capacity and derive experiences through that capacity -which is limited — makes the quality of the mind mediocre — limited – narrow — but awareness of the totality of one’s own being understood through awareness of every thought — every feeling — and never limiting it — letting every thought to flower — there being aware -that is entirely different from action on concentration — which is merely capacity and therefore limited. To let a thought flower or feeling to flower requires attention — not concentration — I mean by flowering of thought- to give freedom to it and see what happens — what is taking place in your thought — in your feeling — like anything that flowers — must have freedom — must have light — it cannot be restricted — you cannot say this is right and that should not be and therefore you limit the flowering of thought and it can only flower in this awareness and therefore if you go out very deeply — you will see that this flowering of thought is the ending of thought — and that is what I want to go into this evening -which is really the beginning of meditation. I am using that word advisedly — meditation — for each one of us it has a different meaning -to some it will have a meaning of repeating certain phrases or concentration of an idea or anything like that which are all action of concentration — which is to limit thought and therefore restrict life — and to allow a thought to flower or feeling to expand fully and go to the very end of it does not mean indulging in thought – indulging in feeling — as each feeling — each thought arises — to give it freedom — to be free — to search every corner — every angle — to find out what it is — and that is not possible if you merely limit — because we need action — there must be action in life — otherwise life cannot be — but if you examine your action very carefully you will see that it is based on knowledge — on capacity — on memory — on motive — and such action invariably limits the totality of expression — and the enquiry into the totality — into the whole process of thinking freely — to find out what is behind all this — is the process of meditation — so that is what I want to talk about this evening and I may be using words that you may not be familiar with — technological words or jargons with special meaning but they are ordinary words with ordinary dictionary meaning — so there are several things — first to understand experience — we have to understand what is necessary as foundation for meditation. I will begin by enquiring what is necessary for meditation — foundation — not what you will get through meditation — not whether you will have peace of mind or not — that is immature — too foolish — I must have peace of mind — you cannot have peace of mind if you are ambitious and the desire for peace of mind whatever that may mean — merely becomes stagnation. So I want to go into the question — first what is necessary — the necessary foundation for meditation.

which means action, not just theory and this mutation is the very essence of the foundation. You see, I am…. Most of our minds are petty, dull, shallow and rather dark — which is mediocre. A mediocre mind can repeat endlessly the sacred books or it can follow a system and have certain stimulus and excitations, but it will remain always a petty mind, a shallow mind — that is a psychological fact — whether you accept or not, it is a fact that a petty mind thinking about God, it will remain still petty because its god is petty. (2) The breaking of the petty mind is important. The mediocre outlook, the narrow family concern, the limited enquiry which are indications of a petty mind — the narrow, limited, shallow, dull mind.

Now, how is that dull mind to be broken up, the petty mind to tear down the walls? to shatter all its motives, its ideas, its habits, its despair — to break it down? That is the first enquiry. Please don’t say ‘My mind (which) it has something [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] your mind, that you are not mediocre, somebody else is.’ Let us use this enquiry personally, individually, so that as you are enquiring into it, your own pettiness is being broken up. So, our concern is there must be mutation in the petty mind, something totally new must take place in the petty mind which means petty mind is no longer a mediocre mind, because the petty mind, the mediocre mind cannot enquire, it can only follow, it can repeat, it can have ‘gurus’ and the rest, of leaders and all that. Now, how is the whole world which is more or less petty, limited, following leaders which seems obviously, obvious necessity, to break up this petty mind? now, how is this to be done? We can do it. Certainly not. A petty man (mind) thinking about (it) his own petty mind and producing a thought which is still petty, cannot break up this pettiness.

So, that is not the way out, which does not mean that it is not the reason, but one can see the limitation of thought and this is important to understand, as I said. Please listen to me — just listen neither agreeing nor disagreeing.. because I am not making any propaganda I am not persuading you to do anything. So, you can relax. You can………….you can do what you like and find out and you cannot find out if we are merely or you are listening, in terms of what you have heard, what you have known, what some authority has said. But, if you can listen which does not mean that you must put aside your critical capacity, which does not mean that you must not be questioning everything that is being said and you can only question if you are alert, if you are aware, and you can only listen if you are not concentrated on one part of the body and letting the (other). You need attention and concentration to listen. So, a petty, narrow mind cannot answer the enormous problems of life, going back to the past, to the tradition of a Hindu or the revival of Christianity or this not going to solve these problems at all. You need a new mind, a totally new mind — not the petty mind that has developed certain capacities. So, you need a new mind and a new mind with a new series of responses and new series of actions and that new mind can only come about when we understand how to break up the present conditions of our existence, not sociologically or economically but inwardly, psychologically, spiritually and I am using the word ‘spiritual’ in a very restricted manner. I do not mean by the word ‘religiously’, because for most of us, religion is such a shady affair with very little meaning — going to the temple or doing some Puja, repeating the Gita 10 times or whatever.. that is not religion at all or belonging to certain organisations groups — all that is the action of a petty mind, nationalism is essentially the state of a petty mind and the world demands not only economically, socially but also spiritually, inwardly, psychologically a totally different varieties of new actions. So, a mutation is necessary. And, this mutation can only take place…. and how to bring about this [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] not as a method because method implies practice and practice implies imitation and imitation is therefore habit and habit is the very essence of mediocrity. To see first of all a difficulty — that as we are, we are petty, mediocre. But, we have to find an answer, a way out of this mess and it demands a totally different mind, not a reformed mind and is it possible to bring out and how? That is what I want to discuss this evening -meeting. Now, we are going to enquire into different things, like experience, envy that producing (ambition or (vision)and actions and so on. So, we will enquire into that, that is question that, go into them very, very deeply and if you will be good enough to follow them not merely verbally but actually, factually which is observing your own reactions, observe your own state of the mind, your state of experience. What do we mean by experience? because apparently, what guides most of us is the knowledge that we have derived from experience, every pattern or of another or of the community, of the race. Experience that is (racial) method, inherited, a development of certain knowledge, certain tradition, that tradition, that knowledge is the derivation from experience, experience being the response to the stimuli and that stimulation, response is the residue which we call knowledge. This is very simple if you are observing it. You have experience. That experience is the result of a challenge to the response. You are stimulated and you respond and you respond according to your memory and that this whole process is called an ‘Experience’. Now, we live on sensation, on experiences which is of knowledge, on information, on memory. Every experience strengthens our memory accordingly to its condition. So experience is not the factor of liberation. Experience will teach you mechanical things — what to do and what not to do, mechanically. If you are an engineer, you must have a great of deal of knowledge [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] skyscraper or [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] that you must have knowledge [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] you must experience. You cannot have experience of many, many subjects… which is called Science. But, experience psychologically, inward experience which is merely the response to a stimulation from the outside and which response according to its condition limits the mind, does not bring about a new quality of the mind. If I am a Hindu and I have psychologically certain memories, certain traditions and according to these traditions I experience. This experience further strengthens (memory)

The present world crisis, the present existence demands a different mind -a different approach and not response of the old — therefore a new action is necessary and therefore, it cannot rely on experience — pragmatically or actually — you cannot rely on experience — because, if you do, you evoke the past, which will become mechanical — a life is not mechanical — so you must approach it — but that mind that has understood the whole nature of experience and has thereby given feelings to experience and gone away from the demand — away from the further experience. I do not know if I am making myself clear.

All of us want experience — Don’t we? — more and more experience -more and more pleasure — more and more visions and peace and all that we want, because we are fed up with the present experience of life we want more, but when we ask for more experience, which means more sensation which will be translated in terms of the past and therefore strengthen the past and therefore it is not breaking up of the past — but merely continuity -modified of the past — and if you see this very clearly, then you will see there is a state of mind which does not need experience at all.

I will put it in the other way. Most of us depend on the challenge and response — the challenge and the response to it — otherwise we will go to sleep — there is the pressure of the world — of industry — of science -of war — and we have to respond this external challenge — and the response to it — and that response is the know-how — knowledge -capacity. Now, if you do not rely on external stimulus — external challenge — but you have your own challenge every minute — you are challenging every thing which is much more — this is much more significant than the external challenge — and if you reject both — and you have done away the whole problem of experience, then you will find that there is a new quality of the mind, which is not looking to experience as a means of knowing what to do — not a mechanical thing but in life.

I hope I am making this clear — because — you see — a mind that has had experience is a very limited mind — which has capacity in a certain direction but we are dealing not with fragmentation but totality of life and to understand action of the totality of life — the stimuli and the response to it — either outward or inward — must come to an end — a new quality of action must take place — and that action can only take place if we understand the whole significance of experience — racial as well as personal — group — family. Is this somewhat clear?

I will go on, perhaps some of you would have understood it -we will discuss it some other day.

Then if we have understood the intricacies — the extraordinary immensity of experience and its [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] and in that experience you will not produce a thing — therefore the innocent mind which is the very nature of mutation, the mind which has gone for mutation then we will have to enquire into the whole question of envy and ambition — because — you see — an ambitious mind is a corrupt mind — an ambitious mind cannot possibly understand what it is to meditate — it is thinking in terms of achievement — of success — of fulfilling. And is it possible to live in this world without ambition? You know what ambition means — it involves ruthlessness in which there is no love — no sympathy — no affection — each one out for himself in the name of the country — in the name of God — in the name of peace and therefore such a mind is always in conflict with itself and with the neighbour. Therefore an ambitious man never loves what he is doing — he is using what he is doing to get somewhere else — therefore his action is a means to something else. And therefore such a mind has no virtue,- the very essence of virtue is humility — virtue is order — order is not continuity of what has been — that is habit — but order from moment to moment — every minute — so that there is no accumulation arrogance — pride and there is humility. An ambitious man can never have sense of humility — and therefore it is not a virtuous mind — it is the very essence of conflict — ambitious mind -but you will say — how can we live in this world without ambition — how can I go to the office and remain as a clerk for the rest of my life — I want to climb — to become big you must be ambitious -survive — that is so — as the social structure is — that is penalty -but if you begin to enquire into ambition — not saying ‘we must live -it is necessary as social structure is — we must conform to it and therefore we must be ambitious -if you begin to enquire into ambition you will find that you can live in this world without being ambitious and that in the process you love the thing itself — not what it will bring — therefore you will do the thing much more capably — with greater intensity — and not always compare what you are doing with somebody else and therefore function and status are two different things. If you love what you are doing, there is no search for status — which is ambition — using the thing — in order to have prestige — power — position. So a man who would have a new mind — a fresh mind — young mind — is to have — is to be free totally from ambition — because ambition implies competition — which is what we are brought up from our childhood to compete in our class and be somebody there — and right through the world — right through the existence of somebody — which means violence — ruthlessness — no love or sympathy in this — and how can a mind which is ambitious in daily life know what mutation is — how can it possibly meditate — it will talk — to bring about peace of mind — it will repeat phrases — it can have visions — but it will still be ambitious in daily life — therefore such meditation — such enquiry — such way of listening; is mere trickery — it has no meaning and that is what we are all doing. We have our hands in the other man’s pocket and talk about God (laughter) — and society respects a man who is ambitious — respects a man who is famous — notorious — with pictures that have appeared in the papers — each one of us wants to to have faces in the pictures — we are all ambitious — therefore we are corrupt — though we talk of love — talk of family — of goodness [Note that the rest of this page and the first sentence of the next have been crossed through by hand in the original report with a note saying ‘P.T.O.’ WS-06]

— virtue — God — religion. So an action springing from ambition, whether that ambition be for the individual, collective, for nation, for the world is inaction because such inaction breeds misery as you can see it in the word factually — so nationalism is becoming a poison. So when you understand this whole question of ambition and are aware of it — not verbally -not ideologically — or ideal — ideal eventually to be achieved — but actually be alive to it in your daily existence — you will see from that awareness — a new action is coming into being — which is an action without effort — without struggle — because you have understood — you have seen the truth of it -with the perception of what is true [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] and therefore you are acting freely without any compulsion — without any fear- so in the same way with regard to envy.

Therefore, we are [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] So we talk of love, we talk of family [Crossing through ends here. WS-06] we talk of virtue, we talk of god, religion. So, an action springing from ambition whether that ambition be for the individual or for the collective or for the relation, for the world is ‘inaction’ because such inaction produces misery. As you can see it in the word factually. So, nationalism is becoming the poison. So, when you understand this whole question of ambition and are aware of it, not verbally, not ideologically or as an idea, an ideal eventually to be achieve(d)ment) but actually be aware of your daily existence, you will see from that awareness a new action is coming to be, which is an action without effort, without struggle, because you have understood, you are seeing the truth of it and therefore that perception of what is true liberates. And, therefore, you can act freely, without any compulsion, without any fear. So, the same way with regard to envy. Our desire which is corrupt is based on acquisition not only the acquisition of things, but also acquisition of knowledge, capacity; if you have great capacity, you are respected; if you have great knowledge, you are considered to be a very learned person and acquiring, gathering, accumulating not only inwardly but outwardly is the [Blank space in original typescript with ‘fashion is the thing today’ added in by hand. WS-06] acquisitiveness and the very essence of envy is acquisitiveness. If you cease to acquire you are no longer envious. Please follow all this; you may not do it; you will perhaps don’t do anything all you are talking; that may be [Blank space in original typescript with ‘crying for’ added in by hand. WS-06] to just watch but listen to me. See how our life is becoming what it is, the emotional, emotional way, the the everlasting struggle, from the moment you are born to moment you die, the pain, the ache, the anxiety, fear, guilt the innumerable aches that one has, the boredom, the responsibilities, duties in which the is no love, no affection, there is nothing left in it. That is your life, and you are not going to alter it because I am talking, but you will do without your knowing it, if you will listen. If you listen to something which is factual, which is true, which is not pragmatic, which is not trying to force you to do something or think in one way or not. But a free, factual existence of our life, if you are aware of it, the pain, the misery, the shallowness of it, you will….. from that awareness of the fact, that breaks [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06], without effort. All that we are concerned is just to see the facts and with what clarity you see the fact is important, not what you are going to do about the fact — you cannot do anything about the fact because life is much…too limited you are [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] your family or society, too monstrous……. [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] any one of you can unfortunately.

merely listening, if you are merely see the fact, what it is actually, how miserable, how boring, how [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06].

it all is. That very observation of the fact is enough, it will do something to you. If you don’t oppose it, if you don’t say ‘I can’t do anything about it and therefore I went away from it, every day of your life — be aware of it first and then out of that awareness there comes an action without effort and therefore that action is never envious, never acquisitive. So when you have understood experience when you have understood ambition, and envy which are the very nature of our petty, shallow, social existence and economic life, when you have understood that (and) [that](../../projects/kft/data/transcripts-input/th.it) is the foundation for further enquiry. Without that foundation, do what you will, you can go no further, without that foundation, deep down, both at the conscious level and also at the deep unconscious level.. you are no….. you have understood the whole process of experience, the corrupting influence of ambition and shallowness of envy, when you have understood that, that becomes the foundation for mutation. Then you can proceed. (Then the object of mutation…)

Now I am going to go into that, not theoretically, not… such mediocre.. says this and all that, repeat dull, empty words. But those minds that have laid the foundation and this foundation in righteousness, not the social righteousness or economic righteousness but the righteousness with self-understanding and having laid the foundation, then what happens to thinking? you follow? Then what is the place of thought? We have exercised thought in order to acquire, we have exercised thought in order to fulfil, in order to become… we have exercised thought in order to experience more and to choose and to avoid experience. You are following all this, I hope. So when you have understood experience, ambition and envy, what is he place of thinking? Is the thinking at all then? Or is there different action taking place which is not the result of that which is a response to memory? so, the enquiry into the meaning of thought and what is the place of thought and the action both collective and the individual is the enquiry which comes when you have laid the foundation because without that foundation, you cannot possibly enquire into the nature of the ending of thought or what happens to thought. Mere control of thought, is still a contradiction, controlling implies suppression; control implies restriction, control implies discipline-please follow all these. A. mind that is disciplined according to a pattern, social, religious or other kind of pattern, such a mind which is disciplined can never be free; it will always be disciplined according to patterns; therefore, it is incapable of being free and therefore [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] along with right endings. So enquire into the significance of thought, (is it raining? I go on to speak, it will stop) I was saying that we see the significance of control, its limitation, in control, there is discipline, imitation, suppression and therefore perpetual conflict and when you have understood that, gone into it, very, very deeply, then these comes out of it an awareness, because that awareness can come through without limitation. But a mind which is disciplined, which is controlled, (which is) can never be aware, whereas awareness can concentrate without making itself limited. So you will see then that awareness, the understanding of experience the significance of ambition, and the nature of envy and you have really understood this, and laid the foundation in yourself, not through fear because you have understood it by merely seeing the fact. The understanding of the fact gives you energy. Therefore, the fact never creates a problem, you create a problem, but the fact never creates a problem. If you can look at the conflict scientifically objectively, then you can proceed to find out what is the place of thought; you can see what is the place of thought

Please follow all these.

is controlling by ambition success [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] that is also ambition. If you are no longer acquisitive either in worldly things or inwardly, which means no longer acquiring, demanding more and more experience more and more sensitive more and more feelings, more and more vision, and all these [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] there is no place for thought. I hope you are following all these. Then from that you will find the brain becomes extraordinarily quiet, because the brain so (vast) being used for these purposes, so when these purposes are gone [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] examine and the brain is out of thought. Then the brain becomes extraordinarily quiet. Naturally, not because you want to get somewhere, not because you have not understood the question, this monstrous discontent [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] despair [Blank space in original typescript. WS-06] all these therefore the brain which becomes highly sensitive, very alert, but very quiet again, that is the basis for meditation.

Now, the quality brain can watch without distortion — because it has understood thought and feeling — it is no longer seeking experience — follow all these things — and therefore such a brain observes without distortion — because it is not concerned with any experience — it is like watching through microscope the bacilli — and you can only watch that way if you hare laid the foundation — then if you have gone so far — and if you have gone very, very deeply — because no book — no guru — no teacher — no saviour can lead you further — they can only tell you — ‘do this — do that — don’t be ambitious or be ambitious — to become of this brain — which is absolutely quiet and highly sensitive — then it can watch what is actually going on — then it is not concerned with expression — how to translate what it sees into words and therefore to be communicated with another — it is merely watching. Then, you will see that there is a movement which is out of time.

I have to stop — perhaps — we will continue next Wednesday — approach it differently — but since we have gone that far, we will go a step further.

A mind — brain — that is completely quiet without any reaction — which is extremely a difficult thing to do — but is only instrument of observation and therefore [is] extraordinarily alive and sensitive. Now from the beginning we have been talking about is meditation and when one has gone so far in meditation — then you will find for yourself that there is a movement and action out of time — a state which is immeasurable — and that you may call God — it has no meaning at all — but that state is creation -not writing a poem — or painting a picture — or putting a vision in a marble — that is not creation — that is merely an expression, — but there is creation which is beyond time — until we know that — know in a sense — not as knowledge — until there is that tremendous awareness of that state — our actions in daily life will have very little meaning – you may be very rich — you way be very prosperous you may have very good family — you may have all the things of the world — or hankering after the things of the world — but if you have not understood that thing — life becomes empty — shallow and the mutation is only possible when you have brought about through awareness without any effort the ending of all the things we have talked about — ambition — experience — conflict — then out of that comes something that cannot be conveyed in words — it is not experience — is not something that you are going to seek — because all search has ended — and that is mutation — that is extraordinary beauty — is a great sense of marvellous reality — which cannot possibly be understood by a petty mind — by a mediocre mind — that is repeating The Gita — The Upanishads — the mantras — everlasting words — all that must come to an end. The brain must be totally empty of the known — then only the unknowable can perhaps come into being.